What is the difference between salvation and Enlightenement?

Hello clutterbug!!! Don't mind, but if the Bible says so, I say Bible is the total crap which is totally based on the baseless superstitions. It is written by the person who don't know the real meaning of enlightenment, but just went on writing in the total fiction and finally said these are the words of God. It would be my stupidity if I believed it.

I know more of the enlightenment, but not of salvation. That's why I kept on this question here. So, that means the salvation is totally depended in the belief of God. No matter how good you be in your life, you go to hell for not believing in Jesus and father. This is again the baseless thing to me. I believe the existence of Jesus, but the book is written so many years after the death of Jesus and the book is baseless to me.

The meaning of enlightenment is to get rid of suffering too. The cause of pain, suffering all is the mind. When you master your mind, you don't have to suffer. Then what is the suffering in the hell???? This is baseless. The total nonsense dogma to me. In fact, reaching the enlightenment is the most powerful spiritual state, or the ultimate spiritual state.

Anyway thanks for your response...It was your nice response. It gave me some of the knowledge that is given in the bible and about salvation. After all knowledge and wisdom are different things. And so how I take those words also depends on my wisdom...

happy mylotting...

clutterbug!!.
you said that salvation is a spiritual state. and enlightenment is spiritual understanding.How can one reach to salvation without understanding it. IT seems both is the same thing. Cause to have enlightenment is to have spiritual understanding and to have spiritual understanding is to have salvation. So how is that person with enlightenment might go to hell while person with salvation will go to heaven.

Since bible is really old, i believe it might have meant really different thing. which might have been more logical. This long years of time and many religious wars, and rulers views on religion and making religion as tool to capture lands and people. And many rewritten of bibles and translations...and..etc.etc..even fool would say its not wise to believe word to word in bible.

"even fool would say its not wise to believe word to word in bible." nice statement

The punch line: "Salvation is only a belief. To say that you'll know after you die is escapism. Kudos
Personally, I feel the belief is harmless (and actually beneficial) to an extent. I'll also give a thumb up to the concept of hell since that would make people fear vice. But all troubles usher in when people (and the religions themselves, in the quest of proselytization) are hellbent on insisting that it indeed is a true place and if a person does not agree to the concerned religion, s/he would land in hell. This is shrewd! Besides, why worry of something which is supposedly going to happen in future and given no real clue of what it is like?
By contrast, enlighentment is a state which can be experienced when alive. This assertion is quite acceptable and can be personally experienced by any individual. Enlightenment could be a kind of hypnosis, a pure science adhering to facts and properties of the mind.

yes i agree that concept of hell and heaven helps to some extent by scaring people about there afterlife. This concept can bring about minor changes in behaviors in people but, they still won't be able to get rid of all the mental impurities.But actually it creates fear, and fear is one of the mental impurities. So it is not the efficient way of changing people.


"Enlightenment could be a kind of hypnosis, a pure science adhering to facts and properties of the mind." well i strongly disagree to this statement. I don't believe it has anything to do with hypnosis.
To do hypnosis, a doer first must know what he wants the subject to believe. And the person who has attended the enlightenment just won't be able to do that. Because the enlightenment can only be felt or experienced and cannot be verbally told. Enlightenment is obtained by constant awareness of mind i.e. through meditation. And while teaching meditation, no one will teach saying that THIS is ENLIGHTENMENT BELIEVE IN IT.

But question may arise the meditator might, believe in what is not or may conceive some illusions as enlightenment. or might force itself to believe in what is not. But the meditation is not believing in things, its about revealing things, discovering things. Its way different from hypnosis. in hypnosis person looses awareness but enlightenment its complete awareness.

like frederick said i am not enlightened but i have experienced the moments, a very short one it might be, but to have it for lasting forever is enlightenment.And its not hypnosis..

Hello Frederic42!!!

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I totally agree with you. Enlightenment is the fact, but until we reach that point, that still remains as only belief to us. Isn't it? I know pretty much about enlightenment. It is really same in which ever religion we see. Yes, the path may be different, but the ultimate goal is to reach that ultimate wisdom, the wisdom that can understand the reality, this creation. Its said, that everything is empty, to realize this thing is the most.

This discussion I have started here to know about the salvation the most. I thought both are for getting rid of suffering. I thought it was most nearly same. But with this thread, I am knowing more differences about salvation. And like you said, salvation really seems to be the superstitious belief. And to say that we will know after death is really escapism.

Getting enlightened or reaching Nirvana is the biggest achievement. No other achievements can be greater than this thing. This is the ultimate success. Ok wish you for the path of enlightenment...

Thanks for your really very nice response Federick...I am happy with this response and thanks for the nice website tooo...

Happy mylotting...

I agree wish what acisMahrje said and again I agree with cannibal in some sense too.

Not all people can seek for the enlightenment. For those who is never going to come up about this term enlightenment, the concept of salvation can be better. Just to create some balance in protecting from negative doings. When there is already fear, then they will start to get rid of it and one day can come up to know that enlightenment exists. And when they know about the enlightenment thing, then like salavation, they will automatically always be positive.

Again like Acismahrje said, it can also be harm to the mind, but in the case if one is searching for the enlightenment. Fear is also the mental impurities, that has to be cleared up away.

But when we talk to the people about the enlightenment, you will also find the people who don't want enlightenment. They say, they still want to live the fullest. They are really attached to the happiness of life.

Just yesterday, I reached to some of the concepts of Osho. His lectures are really interesting hehe...I loved it and he has good sense of humour too...
And Federick, I just read up the article about the osho. I agree with it. And it is no different than the Buddhist concept of enlightenment. The only difference is the way of reaching that point.
And I like the point about comparing the desire of enlightenment with a boat to cross the river. Very true. Wanting enlightenment is also a desire and this desire also has to be dropped when we reach certain point...But before that desire is compulsory...Great link...thanks for linking me to it again...

Acis
I reckon I used the wrong words. I actually wanted to draw an analogy between enlightenment and hypnosis, considering that both have got to do a lot with our minds. My only common thread between the two was that both are possible only with the subconsious mind. However, looking at your reply, it does look like they're miles apart. Thanks for enlightening me on this! But still, I just wanted to asert that if hypnosis is possible, then so is enlightenment on similar lines.
The concepts of heaven and hell, I'd say again backfire when you introduce beliefs like if you don't believe a particular God you'll reach hell and so on. Those concepts should be only confined to deeds, direct and indirect. (I guess it's this way in the eastern religions, not sure though) Fear would be beneficial in such a case.

cannibal,
Enlightenment is supposed to happen when you go beyond mind. When you are free of thoughts, prejudices, worry, hope, frustration-when you are in the most relaxed state of being – enlightenment is supposed to happen.

This does not mean that enlightened does not think . He uses his mind, but as total master of his mind. The mind of the enlightened is totally under his control.

Enlightenment is not with the subconscious. It is with the superconscious. This superconscious is beyond the subconscious. I think hindus refer to it as Atman or soul.

The belief in hell does not make people better human beings. The people who fought crusades, inquisition, the people who destroyed pagan temples and books – these people were those who believed in hell. The requirements to be damned to hell differ according to the convenience of the priesthood. During the crusades, people believed that the crusader would go to heaven. The inquisition was also believed to under the guidance of holy spirit. It was called ‘holy inquisition’.

Again, regarding enlightenmetnt, I am not speaking from my personal experience. I have written what I have read from an enlightened person.

i agree with frederick42

Hello freethinkingagent!!

Well at first I thought that the enlightenment and the salvation are both the similar things with different words. I understand what you meant. But with this thread, I came to know that the salvation is the different thing and the enlightenment is the different thing. The concept of salvation is totally depended on God. In the first response, I saw that the Bible has stated that even the enlightened person can still go in hell. Because he is not in the state of salvation for not believing in God. This I felt the extreme stupidity.

The religions that are depended on gaining the enlightenment is found to be opposing the existence of God. They say that the belief in God is in fact the barrier to the path of enlightenment. And if you look at the concept of salvation according to religions then they are totally depended on god.

And I understand what you meant about saying every thing is the same. Yes I totally agree with you. It is our perceptions that made it different. Light and we are the same thing, sound is the same thing. Everything is same, they are seen varied depending upon our senses. This creates the illusion. Actually everything is made from the same thing. Like you said, when we look the things or its source then we will find that everything is made from the same thing. This is the oneness. But to realize this thing, we need to reach the state of enlightenment.

It seems that the concept of salvation and enlightenment is totally opposing. Thought the meaning of both is to reach the similar thing. i.e getting rid of pain and suffering.

Thanks for your intelligent response...happy mylotting...

Enlightenment without the knowledge of God is not enlightenment at all. Enlightenment with out God is folly. The fool says in his heart there is no God, and with his intelligence he proves he knows nothing. Salvation begins with enlightenment, with out enlightenment how can one know he is in need of Salvation? Therefore true enlightenment is salvation, and salvation is the breaking of the earthly chains that keep us in the dark and on the same spiritual road to nowhere.

Hello freethinkingagent!!!
I disagree with your statement "Enlightenment without god is foolish." Lord Buddha, the first enlightened person in the timleline, he had never took the support of God. At that time, there was no proper knowledge about anything. And he clarified most of the happenings of this world. He said not to take the support of God. In fact, the belief in God is one of the ditches that prevents you from reaching the enlightenment. The same is with Osho. He also say the same thing. If you look at the concept of enlightenment in both of Buddhism and Osho, you will find that the Enlightenment means the same thing. Not like salvation in Christianity and Muslim is different. Salvation is totally related to God according to the religions like taking the support of God and saying forget himself/herself.
At least the people who reached the enlightenment don't see the God in the concept given by the religions. They give the different meaning. They talk about oneness made everything from the same thing like you mentioned.

But God is one. And God is yet everything. God does not need to be defined in the concepts of religion or dogma. But to say something exist that sustains all is to say their is God. God to me is not an old man with a long white beard. For me God is in everything, is part of everything and yet also sustains everything. God is the originator of all energies and is eternal. The knowledge of God does not hamper my search for enlightenment, but is the source of my enlightenment.
If one has preconceptions about God, or preconditions of what God is then it does hamper their development. If one is able to free themselves from all prejudices and seeks only what is true and pure, a conception of God does not limit their ability to find enlightenment, it opens their eyes to see beyond the black and white of the texts, and see further than the dogmas of their religious indoctrination.
But of course my way is not the only way. There are many ways to climb a mountain. If for you the acnolegment of God hampers your enlightenment, then who am I to say you are wrong. While the Buddah may have been very wise, his teachings are but a technique, and perhaps he said what he said because at that time people needed to be torn away from their indoctrinations? But in this day and age would he say the same thing?

And also why I say enlightenment and Salvation are one in the same and intertwined is because salvation is to be free from our physical lives, and enlightenment frees of from the physical while we are yet still physical.

Hello again freethinkingagent!!!

Now its wrong for me to discuss on the matter and keep catching with the point that this is right and this is wrong. Because you and I are not enlightened. We may be mistakened.

But about the question, would the Buddha have tell the same thing in the present condition? Yes I think he would have still said the same because truth does not change. Look at the present enlightened person Osho. He says that the belief in God is in fact a problem. I was talking on his basis too.

Whatever, the necessity is the be able to question and find answers to reach the ultimate wisdom...

Happy mylotting...

thank you

Hello sarahruthbeth22!!!
The concept of salvation you mentioned is right. But the concept of enlightenment you mentioned is vague. Enlightenment is also the sate of freeing from suffering and pain. It is reaching the ultimate wisdom, the phenomenon of life in its true form.

But by reaching Enlightenment you have gone beyond suffering and pain.

Yes, that's true...

You are right islander7. Enlightenment has the base, but there is no base for the concept of salvation. The concept of salvation seems to be more superstitious than wisdom...

Hello Aliceinwebland!!!

Painkiller to ease suffering haha... . But do you think only ease temporarily? Enlightenment is the permanent healing of suffering. I don't believe the existence in heaven and hell still after enlightenment. If people say so, then the meaning of enlightenment is lost.

I had pretty much knowledge about enlightenment before starting this discussion. When I used to hear the word salvation, I thought the enlightenment and the salvation are the same thing. But slowly I started getting on doubt and getting the difference between them. To get more clear I started this discussion.

Now I understand that the concept of enlightenment and the salvation is totally opposing. Well I prefer the path of enlightenment than salvation. Salvation seems to be only the superstitious belief to me. And I find more reality in the concept of enlightenment. My belief is more towards enlightenment.

Imagine how does it feel to find yourself in true nature. Imagine about knowing all the mysteries of the creation of life. Imagine about feeling the greatest satisfaction for knowing that you have mastered the wisdom. Imagine that you know the most mysteries of the world. The state of enlightenment has all these answers.
How does it feel? We can't imagine it unless we become able to reach it haha...

Happy mylotting...

And what do you prefer googyfrmp, salvation or enlightenment?

salvation, I would hate to be responsible for my all my down falls and weaknesses. I am not worth enough to even attempt to be.

Can it be that they are two sides of the same coin? Freedom from suffering and the eternal absence of suffering are very relative to each other. Can salvation come from enlightenment? With out enlightenment can one know of salvation in the sense that he/she really needs it? I am not speaking in a religious sense of the word salvation and forgiveness. For me forgiveness is only important to self. One can not find enlightenment with out forgiveness of self, because if i am constantly thinking about things I have done that have caused me pain or caused pain to others, I can never find enlightenment. Religion tries to give man forgiveness by saying God forgives them, but this alone can not get rid of guilt and remorse. So for me to have "salvation", I must forgive myself as a flawed being that does not know who I am, and then realize i may be something more than I am. Then have an understanding that I must find out if i am more than I believe. This is the rode to enlightenment, and with enlightenment I find my own salvation and forgiveness of self. Because when I see myself I now understand that all things are not good or bad, black or white, that all things come and return to the same point of light, and that even I belong to that point of light. and thus I am enlightened with my salvation, their is no guilt nor remorse, only knowledge that I am not alone, and I never will be.

I have rambled enough, I am sure i am making no sense what so ever.

Whether Salvation could come without Enlightenment depends on the the way the religion was conceived(pardon me: Revealed to the Prophets/Seers). Like for example within the SD-fold, we have the school that would vouch for Salvation and/or Enlightenment certain by the grace of Guru/God, which school also dismisses Enlightenment and Salvation occurring at different times. The only method for this is to surrender the ego to Guru/God. This is the Vishishta-Advaita School or Qualified Monotheists as that can be translated into English. There is the other school which says Salvation is possible only by the Grace of God(mediated by the Guru) and in no other way. These are our Dwaita-Vedantis(or Dualists). This school dismisses Enlightenment as unnecessary even. As I understand the literary meaning of Salvation is "being saved(?)".Correct me if I am wrong, and if it has any more connotations than that. Let's take it that it means being saved from ruin/eternal damnation or as in the SD-belief system being saved from being born again into the cycle of births and deaths.

In a way you are right in saying that E and S mean the same in the ultimate analysis: I was trying to bring out the subtle differences between religions in the concept, why, the differences between different schools of Vedanta within SD.

Onlly the Advaitis among the Vedantis and the Buddhists/Jains place the responsibility of Enlightenment as a necessary prelude to Salvation. In fact Salvation(viewed in the H/B/J paradigm)there is no other way. Advaita however incorporates the SD view of Faith-Grace path as an alternative available, but goads one to strive for it actively.

I would say that an enlightened person he who has attained Nirvana does not need salvation because there is nothing to be saved or liberated from.

Suffering is a myth because it has nothing to do with our true state of being or the superconscious. Enlightenment is that state of being where one is in total bliss, where one will not even think 'I have been liberated'.

Salavtion is to do with mind (Believe in Jesus/Allah/Yahweh and you will attain salvation.)

Enlightenment is supposed to happen when you have no beliefs, no worries, no thoughts, when the ego disappears. Salvation is needed for the ego, and not for the superconscious.

During EN, the ego disappears by merging or dissolving into the superconscious.

However, all this is not fro my personal experience. I may be wrong here.

Wow!

I beleive both of you have answered my question that i was unable to ask for lack of my knowledge. This is why I said enlightenment leads to salvation. Because once enlightenment is achieved, you have also achieved salvation because there is nothing left to be forgiven or saved from. And as I said, religion teaches man they need salvation for forgiveness. And the only reason man has a need to be forgiven is because of his own feelings of guilt and remorse. Salvation provides him a way to shead his guilt, and in a way part of his ego, because then he declared a higher power that he is obligated to. However, this can not help him in shading complete ego. But the realization of the need of salvation (shedding his guilt) if taken seriously can lead the person to find enlightenment.


On the flip side of the coin, the search for enlightenment can be realized as salvation in itself. because by shedding ego and thoughts and beliefs he has by definition achieved salvation as well as enlightenment. And you said something about not returning to the cycle of rebirth being salvation, so I ask you, is this level achieved by enlightenment? If so enlightenment again leads to salvation.



Perhaps when talking about salvation everyone assumes the definition of western thought of appeasing a God for forgiveness or grace given to us by God. But the way I understand salvation is not a state of man, but a "gift". Salvation in religious sense is the forgiveness of sin and like the term you used being taken away from the cycle of rebirth. meaning that salvation can also be obtained by devotion and the willful surrendering of oneself (ego) to Deity, by way of us feeling that we are forgiven and thus we forgive ourselves and reach a place that truly frees us from this world like the belief in living in heaven. But while in a religious sense salvation is realized only after death, salvation through enlightenment can be achieved while we yet live. If by enlightenment I come to that point where I no longer have the need to feel forgiven, and can for a lack of a better word ascend to a higher level of existence, is not that then the ultimate salvation?

Yes, freethinkingagent when we compare to see the salvation in terms of religion, it really creates another illusion in us. But if we look at the meaning of salvation as being saved, being freed from this mortal lives, then enlightenment and the salvation comes to be the same thing. Isn't it.

The submission of all egoes to god and wanting the salvation or enlightenment in the meaning above can be the first step. Like you have already mentioned, enlightenment cannot be obtained without forgiveness. So, the forgiveness is the steps or ladder to the enlightenment and for that like Gadhisunu mentioned, one can remove it by submitting it to the Gurus or like you say confessing it to the higher power or God. But may be there comes a point too, where we have to stop taking the support of God. And may be at that point expecting god for the enlightenment can be harmful. At the stage where the desire to enlightenment itself becomes another ego or desire that is still preventing from the reaching the point of enlightenment. At which, every belief, every desire has to be quit. Isn't it....

Thanks for everyone for their valuable comments on here. May you all be successful to seek the enlightenment.

Very True. One mustn't shy away from adversity. Even the bard said: "Sweet are the uses of adversity". Enlightenment is the end of both "pleasure" and "pain" the result of duality and in its place you have unalloyed bliss. Well, I didn't use Bliss as an equivalent of "pleasure"!

That is very true bird123!!!
Adversity is the part of learning. I meant is the same. The adversity brings in the awareness in human beings in search of knowledge or liberation. It is the adversity itself due to which all the religions emerged, philosophy emerged. I am also more towards enlightenment concept than the salvation.
Thanks for your response...happy mylotting...