Do you believe in “Rapture”?   

Hi shig,,

So then ,in the twinkling of an eye , then rapture, then a "second comming" ??
So do you mean three times ??

I honestly don't understand what you mean .. Who has taught you this ?

Blessings,

moonbutters

Hello allknowing,

Whom ever is present during this time.

I can give you two examples of why this is true.

First in Matthew 24:22. " And unless these days had been cut short , no life would have been saved; but for the sake of The "Elect" those days shall be cut short".
( So the "Elect" are still here during the very worst).

Second in Revelation 7: 14. "These are the ones who have come Out of the great tribulatin, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".
( You must be "IN" a situation to " Come Out of It ).

So from this we know that not only will the "Elect" still be present during the Great Tribulation, but also those who "wash their robes" during that time.

I am in no way trying to convince you to my way of thinking .. Everyone must decide for themselves what to believe.

I am only giving you what I know.

Blessings,
moonbutters

That's true Silver, but the Bible does not say so.

I wish it did. I would much rather go in a "rapture" than to face what is in store here..

moonbutters

You can say that again. So many people think they will be spared the time of trouble through a premature rapture but the only way we will avoid the time of trouble is to die. Those of us who are old may well miss all the troubles such as the last plagues that are to come. The only rapture I believe in is after the judgment. We have to be judged before Christ comes or He won't be able to separate the sheep from the goats. It would be mean to take someone to heaven who isn't fit for heaven and then tell him/she that they have to leave.

At harvest time they gather the grain into the barn and the thorns are kept aside to burn. If grain finds its way into the thorn, reapers salvage it. That is called salvation. If thorns are find in the grain they too are hand picked and thrown back to the place where they belong. Same applies to the end times.

I believe you have explained this as best it could be. I haven't got the words to explain but I do believe in the rapture. I kinda look at it like I would with my children. God being us and us being our children. I wouldn't punish one of my children if they have done nothing wrong. I feel the same about God why would he punish us by allowing us to go through tribulation when we have lived for him. Good discussion achilles I enjoyed reading all the responces.

Thank you overwith for your appreciation and support.

Okay the man of sin, the son of perdition would reveal himself first. Who is he? Do you envisage he has already exalted himself and taken his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as behind God?

No achilles I have not, but it is very near.

Who is the " son of Perdition " ??

At the same time, I do believe he is planning his move as we speak..

Seeya !

moonbutters

Coming back to the question do you believe Jesus would return in the clouds, with angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints? May be they told us all this to mislead us.

Ok,

Yes, I do believe that is how His return will occur. Every eye shall see. There will be no mistake about it. "Let no man deceive you ".. This is a promise.

But to say I believe in a "Rapture" ,, than no, I do not. That is not scriptuall nor was it ever mentioned prior to Margret Macdonald who was a young woman who while being very ill and with a high fever began to speak this as truth. There were "men of the cloth" present at that time as this was a Christain family, ( one in particular )who took this "information" and spread it worldwide as truth when in fact there is no mention of this word in scripture. Margret herself later stated that she felt this was of a demonic nature and was regretful.

Blessings,

moonbutters

Not only Margret Macdonald but there were many exponents of the doctrine of Rapture and they made millions by selling the copies of their books. Prominent among them are John Nelson Darby; John Walvoord; J. Dwight Pentecost and Hal Lindsey.

I would rather believe in what Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:2–3.

Again Jesus said, ""But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only". Matthew 24:36. Despite this many did the date setting including Sir Isaac Newton, who proposed, based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel, that the Apocalypse could happen no earlier than 2060.

I however believe, it is going to be a very silent event. None would know He came and the world is changed in a twinkling of an eye.

Yes ,

I am aware of those including Darwin , ( who until a certain point in his life claimed to be an atheist, along with Albert Einstein ), said there would be a point of "disappearance" for Christians. But the word "Rapture" was never widespread until Margret Mcdonalds time.

Interesting that you think this event (The Second Coming ) will be silent.

Hmmm. Actually , God says he will set his Kingdom up here on earth. So where the' Heck does everyone think they are going ?


I think I'll just hang out here. lol
hugs,

moonbutters

You are right the word 'Rapture' was never widespread until Margret Mcdonalds time. However, Jesus Christ himself and apostle Paul had made statement that had already established the doctrine of 'Rapture'. Jesus said, in Matthew 25:13, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." Paul affirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Another point is after His second coming, would he stay back on earth or will he return to the father. Those who conjoin with him will go with Him. He is coming here only to establish the kingdom of heaven for the inhabitants of the New world.

Hello my Bible chatting friend !

LOL

Always good to see you.

You are absolutly correct in what Jesus said in Matthew :25.. But to me at least ,that in no way indicates a "Rapture". He only said as you qouted . Meaning be on the watch , as we do Not know When He will "Return". He never said ,, When I come to "Take You Away" . But rather "When I Come". He Himself says that no man knows the day of the hour , but only the Father.

As to the Thessaloniains 4 scripture ... Also true...Which made me wonder , as we discussed eirlier, as to why you though this would be a "silent" event...Remember ?

But as always we have much to say. But at this point I have this..

Notice that in Thess 4 , there is a pause, an "addition to", if you will ( As I many times do but call it an "afterthought"), that between " The trumpet of God "....and " Then we who are alive and remain "...comes the scripture ..... "and the dead in Christ shall rise first"....

The word "and" here means "but" , or "except".

It was an afterthought on Pauls part, simply reminding us of many scriptures already spoken.

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".

The following is one of which I speak and also in the Book we are speaking about.

Look above in this same chapter in verse verses 13 - 15.

"But we do not want you to be Uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, (IE Dead) that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no Hope (Unbelievers).
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain untill the coming of the Lord, shall Not precede thoses who have fallen asleep".

Hence to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord as scripture states.

Christ never said we will be taken away , He says we shall be caught up in the air,, hence Spirit. He Himself says that He will establish His Kingdom on earth.

I am doing a study now concerning end time events concerning and "Thoses in High Places" . I am much absorbed in this and so I am sorry if I'm not speaking in as much detail as I normally would.

Always a pleasure !

Blessings as always !
moonbutters

Small afterthought . LOL



Matthew 6:10...Thy Kingdom come , Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Jesus will establish His Kingdom here. I don't intend on leaving.

seeya!!

I see everything mentioned in the Bible about "Rapture" as symbolic. It is because they had no other means to explain the phenomenon otherwise.When I tried to explain through consecrated elements you said people won't understand. Even Jesus tried to explain it through bread and wine during last supper but none understood him. He was speaking about consecrated elements of Christ. Nevertheless, the most important thing is, as you said, "Jesus will establish His kingdom here." I give you my BR for saying this.

Wow,

Thank you for the BR.. Considering what we are discussing I am honored.

I did post a few things just eariler today , and after your BR, but I'm sure you know.

We will talk more I'm sure.

Blessings !
moonbuters

However, at the harvest time the reapers must come with sickle to reap the harvest, gather the grain into the barn and to cast those who are not worthy into the eternal fire. It is written thus in the scriptures. Jesus himself said this in one of his parable.

Exactly achilles,


Now in that parable , look at what was said. All were "gathered" and then those not worthy were cast into the eternal fire. Not the other way around.


moonbutters

To achilles,

I'm still waiting for the "Stones" ,( Ducking my head )then hopefully we can discuss this more.

lol,
moonbutters

I don't think there'll be any stone, moon... lol

To all: do I get it right that you two think that G-d doesn't like us giving thanks to G-d and doing G-d's will? Won't such doing make us worthy in G-d's eyes, even if we don't wait for the messiah or Jesus?

To Starchaser,

Thank you.

I looked out today and since I saw no stones being cast decided to venture a bit more.

I appreciate your tolerance in my beliefs.

I only see two problems with the " What difference does it make" way of thinking.

Firstly, If you are unprepared , ( and Jesus does say to prepare ) then you are not ready to face the oncoming events. Are you "Prepared" to starve or watch your children die from hunger ?

Secondly, If you do believe in this " Rapture" then when the Beast appears claiming to be God and making "Peace" , will you recognize him for what he is ? Will you think that Jesus has returned ? Will you then take his "Mark"..

Food for thought.

Blessings !
moonbutters

lol. If I were to throw stones at you, how many would do the same to me? lol. I'm sure that everyone studying the bible understands that we all may have different interpretations on the same subject, so no one will throw any stone to anyone.

I have problems with forecasts, I can say. I remember this, but as I study Jesus' sayings, I find it hard to believe the forecasts. The bible tells us that G-d canceled many promises made, and this makes every forecast questionable.

I, for one, didn't believe Jesus existed for many years, and began to study his sayings again only in the past few years, still in doubt of Jesus' existence. Lately I've begun to believe that there was one named Jesus, but I'm not convinced that everything claimed to be Jesus' words were truly Jesus'. The beast itself, not only that it doesn't have any reference in the old testament, it's also against the teachings that there is no opposition to G-d. This makes me think that this didn't come from Jesus.

Will you or anyone throw stones at me? lol.

Dear moonbutters, I can see you quest after God and you are truly interested to know God's redemptive plan for us. I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion with you. I see in this discussion a unique opportunity to view it with a different perspective.

Let me begin at the beginning. Dictionary assigns several meaning to this one word rapture, as it does for other words as well. One meaning is the one, which has triggered this discussion. The other, which appeals to me is, "The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven." Other meanings are, "The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy." and "An expression of ecstatic feeling, often used in the plural."

Our understanding of the phenomenon would be according to the meaning, which appeals to us the most. One can experience ecstasy in a place of eternal bliss, which is heaven. Jesus did promise us 'Kingdom of Heaven'. Therefore, there is nothing wrong in thinking that eventually there would be "Rapture".

I agree with verse 37, which states that coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. To me the story of Noah is nothing more than a story of a charming ship builder; a sailing vessel with bowsprit and rigged masts; floating in flood; containing men, animal, etc. However, it is not just a story told to fascinate the people, but to reveal God's great redemptive plan for humankind. The great deluge too was a kind of rapture, which had transported people from one world to another. The world that was devoid of conditions, which existed before Noah, the world, which was devoid of creatures that existed before Noah. It might not have been a blissful state but it was certainly a better state than before.

Even after Second Coming of Jesus, the conditions might not be as blissful as we envisage. Heavenly state is a perfect state. Perfection means finality and finality means end. It would be the end time for this world; but the beginning of another world; a world definitely better than the one in which we live.

At another place in my comment I said, "I believe the event would be a silent one". I mean to say it would be as silent as the first coming of Jesus. None knew when He would come. None knew how He would come. They were waiting for a Messiah, who would remove the clouds of gloom that overshadowed them for 1000 years in captivity, first under Egyptians, then under Babylonians and then under Romans. He lived with them for 30 years and none knew him. For next 3 years, He tried to convince them who He was but they went and crucified Him. Not even his disciples believed Him because one betrayed Him and another denied Him.

His second coming will be not different to the first one. The same people who are waiting for Him would oppose Him. He does not have to die another death for their sins. Therefore, I said that the event would be a silent one. There would be no angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints, as Dispensationalist Premillennialists have described. Those who would go up to meet Him would be the consecrated elements of those who brought Him forth into this world. They will constitute His body and blood. Together with them, He himself would experience everything and judge everything for himself. The feelings of satisfaction and displeasure that would be aroused in Him through his first hand experiences would judge the world. Through His blessings, He would either exalt them through His blessings; or curse them to their condemnation.

The Son of Perdition too would be there to vex him who He would send through His commands to the depth of Hell. Together with him will go to hell his angels, the desecrated elements of which the blood and body of the most despicable one is made of those who brought him forth. The Son of God will go back as silently as He came. None would know. The world would step into a New Era. The world would be a better one than before. In that world, there will be no politicians, no churches, no priests, no Pope, no marriages, no judiciary, no judge, no lawyers and no humans. They will be divine; they will be like angels. This is my interpretation of "Rapture".


I agree with verse 37, which states that coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. To me the story of Noah is nothing more than a story of a charming ship builder; a sailing vessel with bowsprit and rigged masts; floating in flood; containing men, animal, etc. However, it is not just a story told to fascinate the people, but to reveal God's great redemptive plan for humankind. The great deluge too was a kind of rapture, which had transported people from one world to another. The world that was devoid of conditions, which existed before Noah, the world, which was devoid of creatures that existed before Noah. It might not have been a blissful state but it was certainly a better state than before.

Even after Second Coming of Jesus, the conditions might not be as blissful as we envisage. Heavenly state is a perfect state. Perfection means finality and finality means end. It would be the end time for this world; but the beginning of another world; a world definitely better than the one in which we live.

At another place in my comment I said, "I believe the event would be a silent one". I mean to say it would be as silent as the first coming of Jesus. None knew when He would come. None knew how He would come. They were waiting for a Messiah, who would remove the clouds of gloom that overshadowed them for 1000 years in captivity, first under Egyptians, then under Babylonians and then under Romans. He lived with them for 30 years and none knew him. For next 3 years, He tried to convince them who He was but they went and crucified Him. Not even his disciples because one betrayed Him and another denied Him.

His second coming will be not different to the first one. The same people who are waiting for Him would oppose Him. He does not have to die another death for their sins. Therefore, I said that the event would be a silent one. There would be no angelic activity, trumpets, heavenly signs, and a gathering of the saints, as Dispensationalist Premillennialists have described. Those who would go up to meet Him would be the consecrated elements of those who brought Him forth into this world. Together with them, He himself would experience everything and judge everything for himself. The feelings of satisfaction and displeasure that would be aroused in Him through his first hand experiences would judge the world. Through His blessings, He would either exalt them or curse them. The Son of Perdition too would be there to vex him who He would send through His commands to the depth of Hell. Together with him will go to hell his angels, the desecrated elements of which the blood and body of the most despicable one is made of those who brought him forth. The Son of God will go back as silently as He came. None would know. The world would step into a New Era. The world would be a better one than before. In that world, there will be no politicians, no churches, no priests, no Pope, no marriages, no judiciary, no judge, no lawyers and no humans. The will be divine; they will be like angels. This is my interpretation of "Rapture".

There is a typo, I see the paragraphs from "I agree with verse 37,..." are repeated. I am very sorry for this error. Please excuse me.

Hi again ! Just me ! lol

I'm responding only to the state of "Noahs Time".. This is why I didn't say much on the matter earlier in our discussions. Most will not agree.

Now, Let's think about this with an open mind. What was going on during this time ? Why should the "End Times" be refered to as the "days of Noah" ? Well, Genesis Chapter 6: 1-4 explains this.

Verse 2 states that "the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beutifull; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose".

Verse 4 ..."The Nephilim ( Giants) were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to ( had s*x ) the daughters of men. and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men of old , men of renown".

Now , my question to you is , Who were the " sons of God "?

Also , why if these are " sons of God " would He want to distroy them ?

I will await a responce.

Secondly,,,,,Those who were "Taken Away" were not done so in a collective manor, but rather distroyed . Do you agree ?

So , if we are to be as matthew 24 states ,, One left and one " taken " then does this seem like a good thing or a bad thing,, to be "taken" ?

Blessings !
moonbutters

Hi moonbutters, you have picked up the right verse. I would love to have a discussion on this. Who exactly were these 'Sons of God'? The phrase 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man' used in OT and NT both. The phrase 'Son of God' in the OT is used only once for Daniel (see Da 3:25). The phrase however, 'Sons of God' is used in verses you mentioned. In NT, only Jesus is 'Son of God'. The reason is that Jesus was not borne out of man's seed. He was born out of Holy Spirit.

There appears to be two lineage, viz., lineage of Cain and lineage of Seth. Seth was born after Cain had killed Abel. Probably bible refers to subsequent descendants of Cain and Seth as 'Sons of God'. They were humans or I would say eu-man (better men). There is a difference between man and human. Men are a stage above animals, and humans are a stage above men. Men are instinctive than human. The humans other hand are guided by conscious motives. They are more kindly and human. They are more sympathetic, patient and tolerant. The men however did not have these qualities. Later descendants of Seth intermingled in marriage with descendants of Cain and produced Giants.

Just like to produce finer quality of roses you have to graft scion of domestic rose on the stock of wild roses, like wise to produce a flock of cultured species the scion of cultured species will have to be grafted on stocks of wild species. Something similar happened and these 'Sons of Gods' were ahead of their time. According to God’s redemptive plan, Jesus was to be the first Son of God.

Please recall, Cain had killed Abel. Abel was more humanly than Cain was. Abel's generations would not have survived in the hostile conditions. To survive and continue existence nature needed species half men and half animal. Providence made Cain kill Abel. People in likeness of Abel again came into being due to marriages between Cain's and Seth's Children. I have given the example of Roses. Therefore, providence again created conditions to destroy them.

I have tried to explain as best as I could.

Hi again,

I can see we have a different belief on this. lol But as Solomon would say , "there is nothing new under the sun"..

I'm not sure if I should began this discussion. Perhaps we should choose another topic.

I am enjoying conversing with you on bible issues and would prefer to keep things more basic I suppose.

Hmmm. Another topic perhaps ?


Blessings,

moonbutters

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I wish you tell us more about your belief system. I am curious to know especially how we would neither experience the death. Will the life be eternal?

what I mean by that is that the living can experience deity first hand. an encounter with God isn't necessarily something that will only happen when we die or at the end of the planet.

Deity is all around us. with practice we can build a first hand relationship with Deity.

Galena my father might pledge his property to me, but it will not be mine until he dies. His will will come into effect only after his death. If I will that I need to have an encounter with God, it would come into affect only after my death and not before. Certainly, not in this lifetime.

Hey there moonbutters - thanks for opening a can of worms subject here LOL - - there are a lotof different viewpoints on all of this.

I found a rather interesting website that shares all of the various beliefs on it at:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm

I guess I kinda stand in what is called the 'mid-trib' catching away of part, but not all of the born again believers - - whoa now it's my turn to open a can of worms! LOL

The reason I say that is because the scriptures says He (Jesus) is coming for those who are "looking for Him" - - which I take means that they are living as exemplery a life unto the Lord as possible.

The story of the 10 wise and unwise virgins leads me to believe that not all are "trimming their wicks (making preperation), and having their lamps (their spiritual lives) filled with the oil of the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus asks the question:"When the Son of Man comes, SHALL He find faith upon the earth" - that tells me it's goning to be pretty bad. I believe that the so called 'great falling away, is in it's very infantile beginning, and will be much worse over the next decade or 2.

And He said also:"When you 'see' the abomination of desolation, look up for your redemption draws near" - - He was speaking to deciples - - so that leads me to believe that the church will be here to identify this abomination of desolation - - we're the children of light and the Lord will have those who walk close to Him prepared.

No matter what happens or when, He'll take care of us - - of that I am convinced.

Just a 'few' of my thoughts on the so called 'end time' and the status of the born again believers.

C. C.

I am anxiously waiting for moon's comments on this very interesting post.

Hiya classycat,

Good to see you again,

LOL, as with achilles you bring up many issues at once. One of you needs to Preach ! But I fear you congregation will not have the ability to follow.
Secondly my dear classy , You open all the worm cans you wish !! It's about time someone did !!!


OK....

Your question concerning the "Ten Virgins" is simplistic .

The "Oil" has always represented the "Anointing" . As does the "New Wine" represent the "Word".

Notice in Revelation Ch: 6 verse 6.. it is said during the release of the four horseman ,,,,,, "Do not harm the oil or the wine".. IE ... As stated in Rev Ch 7 Verse 3... "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the "Trees" , untill we haved sealed the bondservents of "our" God on their forheads"...

So , there will be those lacking "Oil" ..( though they think they have "enough" ) indeed they do not. They have listened to false doctrin and think they have understanding but yet lack the "amount" they need. God cannot use them at this time.

There Has to be a "Sealed" group who are FULLY aware and ready for the Return who can not only defend and protect the "Little Ones" , but also be prepared to give their very life ( Beheading )if needed to preserve both the "Oil and the Wine" . It has to be this way or all would be lost. Harsh but nessesary. ( Rev: chapter 15 7 16.) Gods Word , not mine.

Notice in Ch: 13 verse 16 that ( as satan always does ) those who have not yet been sealed by GOD are then "sealed" by satan. Or as many as are willing.

Satan ALWAYS imitates God. That is his goal. The very reason for the Fall and those who chose to follow.

I will continue if anyone wishes ?

Let me know.
Blessings !

moonbutters

Moon, may be I have not expressed myself well. I will gladly clarify if you wish.

To classycat,

I totally agree with what you said. Yes, "When you see the abomination of desolation".. So , that would be chapter 13 of revelation correct ?
As soon as this chapter is finished ,,,as you said ,,, Look UP for you redemtion draweth near !

Sure enough ! Because Chapter 14 clearly states that Jesus is here !! But it is after ALL that has passed. From chapter 13 to chapter 14 there is a change . Jesus has indeed returned !

Emanuel !!!!!! ( God With Us )

Blessings ,
moonbutters

I thank you Augustinev, for your reply to this discussion. I however believe that Jesus would indeed return, but not in clouds, but the time the world is under clouds of gloom. I see resurrection as a journey not from grave to the heaven but from tomb to the womb. Tomb is the memory where the dead abide. They resurrect in the memory and personify in the womb. Jesus had lived in the memory of the Israelite during the period of 1000 years of their captivity, and then he had resurrected and personified in the womb of Mary.