ignorance of Pagan history, from Pagans themselves.  

"first off, the punishment for Witchcraft was hanging, not burning. in some parts of europe, like Germany, and the outer parts of Scotland, a small number of people were burned for Witchcraft, but the vast majority of people executed for Witchcraft were hung."

very true....though with the trials there were on very rare occasion various other forms of torture (rather brutal too) but like I said it was extremely rare....

"and these people would have been ordinary members of their communities, and like the rest of their communities would have been Christian. these poor victims would probably be turning in their graves if they knew they were being held up as some kind of Pagan martyrs, when most likely they would be disgusted if anyone thought they were a Witch"

again true and yea I can just imagine what they'd be thinking considering todays general form of "witchcraft" or rather most popular is IMO Wicca which is SO NOT (again IMO) what it was like back in the 1500's and so on....Plus I have found that many think it was the Church who did the executing when in actual fact it was the local courts....

I guess for me bottomline is this...that was THEN...this is NOW....stop riding the coattails of others and set your own way ya know....Stop staking claim to things that may or may not have had anything to do with your ancestors...let them rest in peace...they didnt DIE FOR YOU they died out of fear and flatout ignorance and more often they died simply for being "in the wrong place at the wrong time" (for lack of a better term) seeing how many of them WHERE Christians that were put to death...

excellant post-in light of the neowicca thing I've been laughing all day about the preposterous claims people make about being witces, and the BURNING TIMES ta da, and all that. John Dee started enochian magic in forgive me late 1500's I think- I could be a century wrong there, but the Strega have a long history unbroken, not alexandrian or Gardnerian. Gardner published his cobbled together claims in 1951-and it did do one good thing- it sold well. and by doing so encouraged publishers to be willing to put out other works on the subject- some of which are pretty good. alot of fine people have come to the Craft because of that odd beginning. Israel regardie wrote three magickal /metaphysical books in the early 1900's on the crest of the theosophist movement. There are a number of inspired works from the late 1800'sthrough 1930 which really are important studies for the contemplative witch. I think Gardners importance in England is greater than here in the US-here it was that he opened the door for other work to be available. We had the Salem trials here in our history- in which land seizures were accomlished by charges of witchcraft and subsequent drownings. some were pressed- that is placed under a plank of wood and it was heaped with stones until the weight of them killed the poor soul tucked in there. I met the descendent of the last man pressed to death. He wasn't charged with wtichcraft initially but theft, and later to get an execution sentence he was charged with witchcraft. Possibly had had his fortune told or some such. The malleus maleficorum supported burning after enough torture to render a "witch" nearly comatose. I don't know where or when it was the preferred method of killing- read figures of how many actually died that way and it was a surprising large number of men, women and children. that was the inquisition, and I don't trust much that those clerics claimed.

My Galena, you are on a witchy whinge..LOL...I do know for a fact that the term Wicca is new, but it is based on the older non-Christian beliefs, therefore, in a sense pagan...I am not a follower of the Gardnerian or Alexandrian Wicca, but there are other traditions besides these to and followers of those would probably have a real arguement with you in not being considered wicca-- especially those who maybe follow the concepts brought forth in any of Scott Cunningham's books, as he wasn't considered Gardnerian or Alexandrian. I am admittedly a hodge podge of beliefs, so technically an electic "witch"--and admittedly some of my practices would have followers spinning in fits, since one of the rules seems to be not to mix "cultures" which in fact I do-- a combo of Egyptian Celtic and Norse--a definite no no. ,,So yes in that sense I probably do lean and can be considered more pagan, yet I do stil consider myself Wiccan.

Though I don't belong to a coven, I did self-intiate myself a year and a day after I first intially "studied" the "craft"--and I did it in a unique way in that I "orchestrated" a thirteen page ritual that I have written in my Book of Shadows...I say unique since I self-initiated myself on my birtdhay--well, you do have to admit it's a different way to celebrate one's birtdhay..I celebrated near my time of birth which was 2:19 on Nov 19th--and it was very memorable, since the timing was perfect...just as I was beginning the "ceremony" the full moon was beaming down through my window--perfect!

As far as witch burnings etc...Its a shame that it's actually many of the books that try to come across as actual fact as to what went on are in essence romanticizing the matyr syndrome..but in any event...whether burned or hung..does it really matter? When there were so many people labeled as "witch" and killed..most weren't as you say, were witches at all...but I think during those times there was such a paranoia about anything that if a person looked at another one the wrong way..they were labeled witch...Or if someone developed a weird wart after shaking hands with someone..."WITCH"--the point I think I'm trying to make here was all of it was based on ignorance..and people wanted scapegoats to persecute...so anyone was susceptible to being labeled witch whether they were or weren't.

But but but you know nothing, wicca is thousands of years old of course. Its been around for so long hehehehe ;)

Goddess I cant stand it when people go around saying that. Im pagan, not wiccan, never been initiated or anything like that, and dont know I ever will be. I just love how some people are soooooooo conviced that every burning of witches that every single one was a witch when hell maybe 1% were? Not sure how many were, never really looked into that.

Theres one time when I was living in texas that I remember oh so well. My girlfriend and I were going into a walmart, I had my pentacle on the outside of my shirt, its hmm maybe at the most 2 inches big. As we are walking in we see a couple of teenagers standing by the doors, glaring at everything, wearing all black, have makeup on their faces, nails painted black, and one is wearing a pentacle that damn the thing was huge lol, maybe 6 inches around or so. Hes glaring at us, sees my pentacle and blinks, I smile at him, and he blinks again and then suddenly starts glaring again lol. When we came back out, they were gone, I often wonder what they thought about stuff and all that lol.


Pagan and Proud