Are "we" becoming "them"?

@speakeasy (4171)
United States
December 28, 2007 8:20am CST
"The warriors pose for the camera in a group shot - some holding their weapons in one hand and their holy book in another. Elsewhere, a poster bears a quotation calling for the killing of enemy leaders and forcing the defeated people to convert. If you think the images come from Islamic fundamentalist training camps in remote regions of the Middle East you'd be wrong." These are the opening paragraphs of an article about a group openly operating on US military bases. Here is a link to the full article - http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,158531,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl This is the result of a "christian" fundamentalist program that has infiltrated our military. It appears they have decided that the US has to adopt the same type of tactics as militant Islamic groups. Kill the leaders and force conversion to "our" religion; and they feel that our soldiers are in the best position to carry out their goals. Military members belonging to this group have also disrupted "a meeting of non-Christian believers and allegedly threatening Hall with punishment for organizing the event" and threatened to keep non-Christians from reenlisting. Is this a good thing? Do we need to fight "fire with fire"? Or are we in danger of becoming what we fear - a country with a military filled with religious fanatics? What do you think?
1 person likes this
9 responses
• United States
28 Dec 07
A religious group, be it Christian or any other religion, would be operating contrary to regulations if doing what you describe. I can assure you that if the proper military authority is notified, there will be an investigation and action taken. At a minimum orders will be issued prohibiting these actions. At the other end of options, would be the banning of members of these organizations. Yes, it is not widely known but there is a list of banned organizations whose members can not serve in the US Armed forces. e.g. (KKK) There are quite a few more but I'm not current as to who they are.
• United States
28 Dec 07
The KKK is a religious organization. Many do not know it, but they are a perversion of Christianity. Any religious organization infringing on the religious freedom of others can be banned today. No court case required. Their members can be banned from service in the armed forces by either the Commander in Chief or the Secretary of Defense. True, these people can appeal in the courts, but the two offices I just mentioned have the power to do what I've said. When I was on active duty there were probably a dozen or more banned groups. All you have to do to make the list is to be actively working against the constitution of the USA or the overthrow of the government by force. Restricting freedom of religion qualifies. The problem is that the Commander in Chief and the Sec Def do not have the guts to use their authority in this matter.
• United States
28 Dec 07
Okay, I've read the article, now. I do not take back any of my earlier comments whatsoever. I will add that the reporter has made a mountain out of a mole hill. There is no organized group advocating denying religious freedom or the forced conversion of anyone. There have been some isolated incidents of zealous individuals getting carried away with their mouths or posting inappropiate signs, but no organization advocating mass violation of freedom of religion. If there was such a group, the CIC and the Sec Def do have the authority I've mentioned to ban members of any such group from serving in the armed forces.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
28 Dec 07
If you read the entire artilce, you will have seen that investigations, charges, and suits are "pending". But, in the meantime, they are still in operation on our training bases and their members are part of our military. "Rooting them out" will be very dificult; because their military members will probably try to claim that we are trying to "restrict their freedom to practise their religion". A religious organization is more difficult to ban than organizations like the KKK.
1 person likes this
@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
28 Dec 07
I hope they don't end up blowing themselves and bring innocent people with them, instead of blowing the enemies up. the things that fanatics do, how awkward. I'm not saying they should open up to believers of Islam, I know that will be hard for them to do, but at least they will recognize those who are willing to fight with them even if these people are atheists.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
28 Dec 07
I am worried about the atrocities thay may commit if they are sent into battle zones. We have already had problems with some of our troops in Iraq (were they members this group). Sending in armed soldiers who believe they have to "kill the leaders and force the rest to convert" is a prescription for more murder, torture, and other atrocities. Atrocities by our own troops; just prove the islamic extremists point and encourages other muslims to join them.
1 person likes this
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
29 Dec 07
A lot of them already do; we do not need to reinforce that belief.
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@LittleMel (8742)
• Canada
29 Dec 07
yep, then the whole world will think everyone here is just as bad as the islamic fundamentalist
@sedel1027 (17846)
• Cupertino, California
28 Dec 07
Personally, I think the military should stay out of peoples beliefs. I was married to an Army member when the fights for non-main stream religion rights was going on and I thought the situation was rather sad. People who were willing to fight for their country were being persecuted because they didn't follow a main stream religion. Thankfully that was resolved but it took a lot of fighting for and the non-main stream religions are not fully recognized and are not a choice of religion that you can have placed on a dog tag. It is great that while in boot camp the recruits are allowed to attend religious services. I believe that is as far as it should go. The military should not show support for any religion. If people out of boot camp need help, there is always a base church with a chaplain there for them plus many local churches they can get to. If there is a true separation of church and state, then there should be a separation of the military and religion because the military is part of the government.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
28 Dec 07
Personally, I agree with you. Religious services should be available to our military members; but, religion should stay out of military training and daily operations. With people like this in positions of authority in our military; it discourages people of other denominations and faiths from joining and/or reenlisting. Right now, we need more people in the military and military members of the islamic faith are needed to help us fully understand and infiltrate the islamic extremists we are currently fighting. The very fact that these people are pushing for "forced conversion of non-believers" makes them as much the enemy of our country as the islamic religious extremists. In addition to an external enemy; we now have an internal enemy operating inside our own armed forces.
@sedel1027 (17846)
• Cupertino, California
28 Dec 07
I am not really sure that people are discourgaed by their religion not being fully accepted. My husband and all of his military friends are non-maintstream reilgion and they all joined the ARMY knowing that their religion would not be acknowledged by the military. They did practice on their own time after the graduated BCT. While they were in BCT they were stuck on base/post on a Sunday doing chores all because they did not go to mass. They alos missed out on other activities like special luncheons and snakcs because they did not go to a religious ceremony. We should not be punishing anyone for not practing a mainstream religion. "The very fact that these people are pushing for "forced conversion of non-believers" makes them as much the enemy of our country as the islamic religious extremists. " I agree with this 100%. I don't think anyone - regardless of where they are - should be force to comply to a set of religious beliefs. This organization is very dangerous and I would consider it an exremist group. I am surprised that no one is fighting this group tooth and nail.
@lancingboy (1385)
• United States
29 Dec 07
I'm not surprised. The Fort Jackson is in South Carolina, which is in the Bible Belt. Those people are total psychos! Just you wait, if they gain enough power, they will become the new Nazi regime and start killing people who don't conform to their beliefs. I hope enough media coverage is given to this story so that people around the country can voice their concerns and hopefully get these people out of the military.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
29 Dec 07
I only heard about this through a military newsletter that I receive. I had not heard about it anywhere else. That is why I am trying to bring it to other people's attention. So, pass the link to the article on to other people and maybe we can make others aware of the problem.
• United States
30 Dec 07
Hi Speakseasy. I shared the link with my grandad and he had this to say: "Many thanks. I sniffed it out and was properly outraged by the item on how the damn evangelicals are getting favored treatment by US military officials. This Bush neo-nazi stuff is everywhere. I will share this site with others." Hopefully I did my small part and will try to share the story with others whenever I can.
@asgtswife04 (2475)
• United States
29 Dec 07
I don't understand what the problem is with trying to get people saved and get them into Heaven. I am a believer in Christ, but my husband...although he believes in Him, hasn't accepted Him as his Lord and Savior. I for one pray for my husband every day that he will find salvation and that the Lord will do what ever it takes to bring him to his knees and turn to Him. We are not a bunch of fanatics...I just strongly believe in the Lord and His Word and have such joy and happiness with Him in my heart. Do I believe it should be pushed on them? NO, I don't. You cannot make someone believe in God...they have to want that for themselves and feel that calling laid upon their heart. You cannot change any person, all you can do is pray for them...but ultimately the decision is theirs to make not ours. As for me, I continue to pray for my husband and my children and about their faith and stuff like that...I pray life over them and I pray for happiness and I pray for my husband and my marriage that it will always be sacred to us and I do pray for the salvation of him, but it's up to him to take that step...not me. It is not a do it or be cursed upon. That is not how you win souls to Christ. God bless
• United States
30 Dec 07
Your right...that is a serious problem. I was unaware of this situation going on over there right now. I hate that they are trying to force them to do things or get booted out. that is not right at all. God bless
• United States
28 Dec 07
I know this post will probably dramatically decrease the amount of people who want to be my friend or who will even talk to me. I also know that during this post I will probably be straying from the main subject time to time but please bear with me if this topic is of interest to you. So from this point on I am fully excercising my right to freedom of speech. SO with that out of the way. My religous affiliation for the moment remains for the larger part undecided. No that doesn't mean that I am an aethiast. On the contrary, I do believe in god. It's just that after some of the things that have happened to me and that I have seen during my life we don't exactly see eye to eye. Thats all of that subject that I am going to share with you so sorry if you want anymore info. On to the subject matter. From this point on I am going to refer to such groups as those mentioned above and any one who follows the same or similar practices as necrochristians(you will understand why later.) First off, I have a question for anyone who is not of the christian faith. Have you ever met any people like those mentioned above and if so what was your experience with them. Please post your experience so others may know the types of reliqous oppression and discrimination you have been victim to because of your beliefs. Thank you beforehand for doing so. For anyone who follows the practices of oppressing or discriminating against other peoples beliefs feel welcome to rant at me, insult me, and in your feeble attempts to outwit me with some sort of demeaning comment remember this "Your own words are a double edged sword"(think about it maybe you'll get it). Now my explanation for the necrochristian term. I am guessing most people have seen the movie Chronicles of Riddick. Do you remember what the reliqious fanatics were called? They were necromongers just incase you have forgotten. What was their purpose? TO bring the necromonger way of life to all those who did not follow their faith. How did they try to accomplish this goal? By utilizing their military forces to force the followers of other faiths to convert to their's (sound familiar). What was the belief about other faiths in the movie? Were they allowed to continue their worship? How were they treated? The answer can be summed up from one line in the movie "Convert or kill". Sounds kind of like some of the people i've met over my lifetime. Now do you understand why I chose to use the term necrochristians? If you don't then go to your local video store, rent the movie, and watch it in close detail. Needless to say, if you have watched the movie and know what I am talking about then you can understand the seriousness of the United States letting a militant religous group infiltrate our Military and how having religous fanatics in a place or position of power in said Military could lead to some major personal and global problems for the United States and its military. Not to mention the dangers and ramifications it would have for enlisted military personnel. If you would like to further discuss this topic I will be starting a new discussion entitled "Necrochristian's and their philosophies." Thank you.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
29 Dec 07
To realize how seriouis and insidious this type of problem is; you only have to look to the islamic countries where the militants are in charge. They started out a small fraction and forced their ways on their more moderate brethren. To any fanatic, if you are not "with them" then you are just as bad as the "enemy". This makes the more moderate believers "go along" sot that they and their families do not come under the category of "non-believers". Draconias, the rest of your response would do better as a separate "new" discussion. It would get more attention that way instead of being "buried" in this discussion.
@lecanis (16647)
• Murfreesboro, Tennessee
28 Dec 07
As a non-Christian American, I have to say I'm not surprised. I've been dealing with evangelicals who seem to think I have to be Christian to be American my whole life, so the idea that they're in the military too doesn't surprise me one bit. I think it's sad to see the Constitution just stomped all over in this way. I can understand that people take their faith with them everywhere they go, even in the military, but breaking up another group's meeting like that? What gives them the right?
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
28 Dec 07
They do not have a legal right to behave this way. Unfortunately, they are operating under the old principal of "might makes right". They convince our leaders to "look the other way" or to actually join them and this lets them get away with it - until it gets reported and outsiders start to put on pressure to stop it. If you are against this; notify your congressperson and ask them to put a stop to it. But, don't be too surprised if little or no action is taken; because, these people WILL start making both campaign contributions and using threats to influence your congressperson. It will take a lot of "noise" and people complaining to make a real difference. That is why I am letting others know what is going on. If you don't know; you can't complain.
1 person likes this
@laylomo (165)
• United States
28 Dec 07
Originally, when people said that the war in the Middle East was the reincarnation of the Crusades, I thought that was ridiculous. But this is really interesting. Hopefully, this isn't a common thing in the military; if it is, it's quite contradictory of the fundamental ideology of the country. We can add this to our long list of things wrong with the government.
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
29 Dec 07
While it is not "common", these fanatical elements are often overlooked by other Christians because these groups say they are "Christian". Also, if even 5% of our military beleives that way; that is still more than enough people to cause serious problems.
@Adoniah (7513)
• United States
28 Dec 07
As a Jew, this is a very frightening development. Anytime a new group of fanatics forms it is a danger to someone. It does not matter who the fanatic group is backing. This country does not need any religious fanatics. They already had a serious problem with a General in Iraq saying that he would see to it that all the people in Iraq were converted to christianity. This is terribley wrong. No one has the right to tell another what to believe. There is something the christians are going to have to get used to and they must do it quickly. Right now the majority of the world practises some form of Islam. Christianity is in the minority and is slipping fast. China is growing very quickly and they will never be a large christian country. Indonesia is almost completely muslim. Britian will someday be a muslim majority, it is close now. If is was not for the Mexicans we might be already. Canada is getting close. Do we want to stay at war forever or lose horribly? We are going to have to find a way to come to terms with the moderates and then together figure a way to control the muslim fanatics. Turning loose a bunch of militant christian fanatics will not fix anything!!!
@speakeasy (4171)
• United States
28 Dec 07
Christian fanatics, muslim fanatics, etc. Fanatics can be found in any religion. If they wish to dedicate their life to their worship as priests, nuns, monks, rabbis, ministers, etc. I have no problem with them. But, when they openly advocate killing and/or forced conversion of other religions; then, I do have a serious problem with them. Sending one group of fanayics to deal with another group doesn't work.