I've decided to be obnoxious!

United States
December 4, 2008 11:05am CST
I hope you'll forgive me! But sooner or later, one simply must post a discussion along the lines of what they are always thinking about! I'm very boring. My favorite topics are politics and religion.. and not in that order.. Here's a Brain Boggle I wrote this morning.. (Have a great day!) - They now say we descended from a pre-ape.. and then ultimately from a fish and pre-fish right back to the first single cell of course.. But yet we see no transitional life forms, none living upon the planet, and a mere handful of pieces some refer to as the missing links between one animal/creature and another in the fossil record.. Is it just me, or does that take a giant leap of faith? No evidence. Natural Law does not support it. It takes a miracle for it all to begin, the very thing they so vigorously cannot believe is possible. Yet I am constantly amazed at how easily so many people take it for granted that this theory is truth.. Surely they know this! That mankind's new and beloved theory is simply a belief.. If we think in the way many seem to think about 'people of faith' - surely their thinking (or rather non-thinking) reveals a great weakness! Some reason for this blind faith in such a ridiculous and impossible premise! (I don't really believe this, of course! It's just if all sides of this contemporary debate would just get off their high horse, we could actually have quite pleasant and stimulating conversation!) Don't be fooled. The theory of evolution as to origins is not only like Swiss cheese, it is the thinnest most delicate, paper thin slice of Swiss cheese imaginable.. Natural Selection has never leaped past its own kind. You can breed dog kinds together.. dog, wolf, etc.. But we have never seen a cat/dog. Mr. Dawkins may say "well.. perhaps that sand over there was once a cat/dog.." Well! How can I argue with that?
4 people like this
5 responses
• United States
4 Dec 08
A couple of things to consider that explain why you find a group of fossils that all look alike, and then a gap and the another group that all look alike, related but different from the first group. # 1: Punctuated Eqilibrium: Basically life has long periods of relativly small amounts of change interspersed with perids of rapid change. Because selection is related to the environment, it is when there are major events which change the environment rapidly, that will trigger periods of rapid evolution until populations are relativly well suited to the current environments. Usually you see these rapid evolutionary period following a major extinction. #2: Fossils are "stored" in layers of the earth. The earth is not layers is a simple the deeper you dig the older you are order. Layers are constantly being deposited and eroded. So we will only have fossils in times when there is a lyer put down and another one deposited over it. Then these fossils will only exist until such time as the layer is eroded away. So as you look at a cross section of a mountain, you will see many layers, but those layers aren't a smooth look into history. Each layer will be from a relativly short time period, and then there will be a large time gap followed by another layer that was formed in relativly short time. So in addition to having relativly short periods where the more transitional species exist, there are various time periods that are not represended in the fossil record. So while time extends smoothly into the past, the fossil record is fragmented. As for your cat/dog. There was never a cat/dog, and the theory of evolution does not suggest that there was. I am actually glad to see you used the term pre-ape because it shows that you already know this. But for others reading.... The theory of evolution doesn't suggest that humans came from apes. It suggests that apes and humans came from a common ancestor. The ability to breed two animals together is a defining characteristic that helps keep their genetics closely related and evolving as a group. Dogs and Cats cant breed because they are already separated genetically enough to provide that separation. It also allows them to evolve away from eachother distinctly. You can also cause this by physically separating members of the same species which is what happend in the Galapagos islands. If you want the equivilat of a Cat/Dog, look at a Mule. A mule is the result of breeding a Horse and a Donkey. A Mule is similar to both, but it is infertile, so you can never have a mule without a horse and a donkey which shows us that horses and donkeys probably split relativly recently. And as a final example just so we know it can be done... Look at the Bassette Hound which is a rediculous animal that would never survive on its own in the wild.
3 people like this
• United States
12 Dec 08
Ok remember as you mentioned before, we are not talking about fish here, we are talking about pre-fish that survived without fins. We didn't actually recognise them as fish until after they had fins. Note that water snakes swim just fine without fins, as do jelly fish and octapus. But more to your point, sudden changes will kill individuals which is what happened in all of the major extinctions. Sudden changes killed large numbers of species and animals. Remember, individuals don't evolve, populations do. Also if you read a little closer above, there are some species that can breed with eachother, but it doesn't work very well as noted in the mule example above. All of evolution is a slow change in genetics, so while it is hard to see speciation happen because by definition is takes many lifetimes. There is no contraversy that there are genetic changes in a popultion, so if you want to make speciation happen, it is easy, here is what you do. Kill all dogs except Great Danes and Chiauas (sp) the two remaining populations will be unable to breed, and you will see their genetics drift farther and farther apart. Your great great great great grand kids will recognise them as different species.
• United States
4 Dec 08
I couldn't disagree with you more, though I respect your position. There is a lot more than fossil record that is evidence that evolution is true. DNA can be used to show that all life on earth is related, some more distantly than others. The bacteria in our gut and the viruses that are attacking us on a constant basis are all evolving at alarming rates. This can be explained by mutation and natural selection which is what evolution is all about. I understand that evolution is a theory and hasen't been made a law. But it takes a lot for a hypothesis to become a theory. It's the best explanation at the moment for how we have all the different species we have today. Mind you gravity was once "just a theory". By the way, when did Richard Dawkins say what you have in quotes because that doesn't sound like him ;).
• United States
4 Dec 08
You're right! It wasn't anything he said, just something I was imagining him saying! We've come to think of evolving or evolution as new traits/kinds forming, yet actually, natural selection is present traits separated. For instance with bacteria, antibiotics or conditions kill the weaker strains, and the stronger strains multiple. Same as with DNA, it's a trait that is already present, and it gets "separated" but doesn't evolve from one trait to another, or grow or evolve a new ability or kind, it has to be there in the first place. Also mutation always moves 'downward' and not 'upward', thus far anywa.. I like your idea of gravity was once just a theory! I often think along those lines also. I think in science, we have actually reached a level where the dialog should be, what sort of intelligence designed/set in motion the universe and life, rather than if intelligence was involved. After all in Mr Darwin's day they didn't know about the DNA code/information in every living thing, and still thought a cell was a sort of glob rather than a multidimensional metropolis of function, networking and communication..
1 person likes this
• United States
4 Dec 08
..I see my "'s should have been ' s
1 person likes this
• United States
4 Dec 08
I think you have mistaken already existant stronger strains with strains that gained a benificial mutation that makes them resistant to certain antibiotics. The bacteria without the mutation die before they get the chance to reproduce allowing for the new strain to be more numerous and reproduce more. Most animals with downward mutations never live long enough to reproduce. All the different species we see today are the result of beneficial mutations and/or survivable mutations that have won out in natural selection. Sorry for the delayed response. Really busy.
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
4 Dec 08
Nothing to forgive, and I can't find anything "obnoxious" about this Post. I'm not religious per se, but I do believe in God. (its not The God, I take exception to, its The Organized Religion.)I find your post very interesting because I struggled with this question for a time. I found my answer by going beyond. In my mind, Human-kind did not descend from apes. I firmly believe that Humans were brought to this earth by aliens on space ships to inhabit this world. There are several instances of "chariots of fire" in the bible. I researched this for some time before coming to this conclusion.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Dec 08
I've heard this theory before and find it interesting.. It's one of the things I think could be interesting to discuss! Thanks for replying.
• United States
5 Dec 08
Cool read! I look in the mirror and can't see anything that looks "fishy" to me! These days I have found myself getting tired of explaining my belief system to people. Sometimes I think that our faith is a personal thing and it's best to just keep it to ourself. Arguing is one thing that I don't like to do. I can and will get "peed" off and say what's on my mind and use whatever word hits my head to emphasise my point of view. That can cause some to "blush" at times. I'm not one for saying frig anything.
1 person likes this
@myskina (182)
• China
5 Dec 08
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