Have you applied for your birth quota?

@thea09 (18305)
Greece
December 15, 2009 10:47am CST
The chart shows how many birth quotas are available for the coming year and who has applied for them. Committees that meet their quotas will be praised and promoted, those that don't will be citicised as backward. All couples with quotas can start trying to get pregnant right away, any couple not pregnant by March 1976 will lose their quota. Remedial measures will be taken against those pregnant without a quota. I raise this as there has been several discussions about population control, but no consideration is given to how measures which promote a spaced or controlled population actually go about policing it. For many years in communist China it was not as simple as being told you could only have one child, you had to have permission to get pregnant at a certain time, with forced sterilisation of the females performed after the birth. Forced abortions up to nine months were performed on those women who fell outside the time scale of a quota, forced through indoctrinated coerchion and fines. These things were policed by the Family Planning Commission who in turn would receive bonuses for meeting the quotas of those they controlled or fined and critiised if the quota was exceeded. Did you realise this dark side of the one child policy? Did you think a government could expect its people to comply without being forced? How would you have felt having to apply for a birth quota?
7 people like this
12 responses
• Australia
15 Dec 09
Hi Thea. Yes, I knew about this policy. As a mother of five wonderful sons and as one who believes all abortion is murder, I abhor what happened there. I don't know how women survived under such circumstances. I can't bear to think how I would feel under such conditions.
1 person likes this
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Hi Cloud, I'm glad that others are aware about the truth behind the one child policy and all its implications. Some of the forced abortions which took place in the ninth month were done in horrific ways and as they weren't complied with the women lost all rights, either their homes burnt down or access to water forbidden. Nothing became more important than making the quotas balance exactly.
@stvasile (7306)
• Romania
15 Dec 09
I think it's really unfair for one nation to impose such limitations to is citizens while others don't have them. This policy is, of course, caused by internal social and economical reasons, but I think when it comes to the number of citizens, the global number should be taken into account - something like the CO2 emissions market... I myself believe I will never have children (got my own reasons to believe that) so I would personally make good money out of my birth quota.
@stvasile (7306)
• Romania
17 Dec 09
That would have been my last-resort advice, but it's more time-consuming... Sorry I couldn't find a way around it...
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Very clear except for the APPLY and ok, is that hitting shift and something or will it be in the complicated box? I'm going to tackle it in the morning.
1 person likes this
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
17 Dec 09
I tried and failed - maybe I'll try that other thing again tomorrow which you told me before and go back to before it had this problem.
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@zed_k4 (17589)
• Singapore
16 Dec 09
In Sg, our government is encouraging couples to have more babies. I think that's because the population is going to be lesser in future. I don't mind the policy of encouraging more but certainly not less.
@zed_k4 (17589)
• Singapore
18 Dec 09
Your solution is what we are heading for. In my old workplace, there are lots of permanent residents whom have gotten their nationality converted to becoming Singaporean.. that's what one is called once they are citizens here. Or if they marry and the person can apply for a PR too. I think this is all part of sociology subject, one of my faves.. or perhaps it's political science.. but not so much..
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
21 Dec 09
Sorry Zed missed you here. Social engineering I think it may come under. I keep meaning to look into getting Greek nationality.
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@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
16 Dec 09
Hi zed, that just shows the irony of the situation doesn't it. There are countries who may consider introducing something along the lines of the Chinese system to discourage population growth whilst other countries need to increase population figures generally because there won't be enough young people to support the older generation. Obviously one way to solve the whole thing would be for countries such as yours to invite some of those from overpopulated countries to come to your own. When population growth is encouraged it usually comes with carrots rather than sticks though.
1 person likes this
@Maggiepie (7816)
• United States
16 Dec 09
Yes, I know all about China's forced abortions & sterilizations. How would I feel? Furious. Rebellious. Revolutionary. Maggiepie "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." —George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
16 Dec 09
Hi Mags, not much to say if you already know about it. Obviously nothing was released in the West about the true implications of the one child policy when it was at its worst in the 80's but the reality needs to be shown now if other countries start to think this way.
1 person likes this
• Australia
15 Dec 09
This one really stumps me. On the one hand, I believe the world is already grossly overpopulated and that we have to do something about it if the human race is to survive; on the other, the draconic measures needed are horrifying. It would be lovely if it could be done voluntarily, but it can't. The response above gives us a perfect example of why not. Religious strictures against birth control and terminations, the refusal of Western individualists to accept any control over their private lives, in many cases ignorance, and in some cases neurotic maternal/paternal drives all conspire against that possibility. There is a system of quotas which I have seen in which each human is given .75 of a quota at birth. A couple would thus have 1.5 quotas, and having used one up, would then be allowed to buy or trade another .5 quota to have a second child. There will always be people who are satisfied with only one, or even no children, and thus have part quotas going to waste. If the couple splits for any reason after that one child, each would still have .25 of a quota, and would be able to get together with someone with .75 and have a second. After bearing or siring a second child, they must accept sterilisation. This is, of course, a major sticking point. Ideally, if both male and female sterilisation were able to be reversed, say in the case of child mortality to allow replacement, then perhaps it would not be quite so difficult, but there would always be people who would have to be forced into this, and at that point it all goes pear-shaped. I have even given thought to a plan in which all men must accept vasectomies once they have sired one child, but that runs into the same difficulties with those men who have the need to sire whole dynasties of replacements, or who refuse to be controlled in any way. As for those with religious convictions, there is no rational argument which is going to make them willing to accept any such plan. In the end, the only conclusion I can come to is: either continue to be glad that I'll be long gone and buried by the time the pear goes rotten; or, accept that we will have to institute some form of enforced birth control, with all the evil potentials that has. Because let's face it, if we don't stop the galloping increase in world population, we will end up like ants in an anthill, if we don't, as a species, collapse and die out first. Lash
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
16 Dec 09
Hi Grandpa, it makes little sense indeed to force draconian measures on one country whilst allowing others to do as they choose, but the more educated countries tend on the whole to have reduced the pattern of the past in producing numerous children which they can't afford. Certainly your proposal for male vasectomies is much less harsh than the forced sterilisation of women which is a much more truamatic procedure. I wasn't trying to attempt to raise solutions for population control here though, I wanted to bring attention instead to the reality of such policies and how the longest policy on one child law in China was a complete abuse of human rights and how such policies can only realistically be carried out in a society completely dominated by a government whether it be totalitarian or communist. Eventually what was once unthinkable becomes the norm to society but to implement such policies elsewhere one would need a new generation to be brutalised into the way first.
@vandana7 (98995)
• India
22 Dec 09
There is this just one aspect thea. We Indians, and Chinese - our populations have been increasing for generations. Unlike this, in the west and Europe, you all tend to be cautious on the number of children. It is only after coming to mylot did I realize that there are people with many children even in west. Sometime ago I did receive a mail from one of the so called friend (more anti a particular religion) who was comparing the numbers of each race. And from it - it was obvious that whites (sorry about that) are far few in number, and they can do with increasing numbers, and we can do with decreasing our numbers. Moreover, dont you find it strange that whereas Indians and Chinese have such large populations, the middle eastern nations and African nations which are either strictly opposed to family planning practices, or are quite liberal about such issues do not face the problem as acutely as we do! They are also as educated or uneducated as we are. May be it is our climate that makes it easier to conceive.
@vandana7 (98995)
• India
16 Dec 09
Thanks grandpa_lash. Once again you've stated it so well.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98995)
• India
15 Dec 09
Hi thea, birth quota if fixed is as you've portrayed harsh. But a flexibility in it, that leaves somethings in the hands of the people who want more children, is definitely worth considering. Now, if a person wanted a second child, and couldnt afford the second child, then he or she would have to forego government benefits, such as free medical care, till he earned enough to keep the second child. That is what was suggested. In effect, it would be a way to discourage people to have a second child, or encourage them to increase their productivity, and performance. That is what I envisaged. May be, I didnt express it well enough. I am strictly against abortions. In any event, for India, the right solution would be to ensure that the birthpills for the month are delivered at the doorstep! That way, they can easily be taken by teenagers, as well as ladies of the house. Because of dependence on men, women may not be able to take such pills. But if the pills reach home, they can easily take them on regular basis. Thank you for being unrelenting there. Had you relented, I would not have thought of such simple solution. :)
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Hi Vandana, I knew if you saw this you'd relate it back to India but it isn't about your problems there with population control, this is to see if people actually realise what is involved in implementing such policies. When you first raised it in your discussion you said you had no problem with the one child policy in China. I hope you said that because you were unaware of how it was forced rigidly on people. It is more relaxed these days but at the height of its implementation it applied to everyone and there were no exceptions, or opportunities to space births, and one coulnd't even just decide to have one child and call it a day. It actually began in China with an idea to space births and put a cap on birth levels and turned into an enforced programme which made birth control completely compulsory whether it be by forced IUD's, forced sterilisations, or forced abortions. It should also be said that many who were forced to perform the abortions did not want to do so but had to follow policy or face the consequences. The did express what you thought clearly in your discussions Vandana but I am trying to explain here that such ideas can only work if they are policed by a brutal system such as China employed and believe me no one would want to be subjected to that type of regime and policy. It degraded everyone.
1 person likes this
@vandana7 (98995)
• India
16 Dec 09
officers (typo)
@vandana7 (98995)
• India
16 Dec 09
Thea I agree with you that the Chinese way of implementing one child policy is heinous. But couldnt they think of a humane approach? After all, each leader has his or her own child? And their spouses are there to tell them, their mothers and sisters are there to tell them. :( I agree that the way it was implemented was really worth raising all that noise about.
@maximax8 (31053)
• United Kingdom
16 Dec 09
It is sad but interesting to find out what happened regarding birth quotas. I know that if told a lady could get pregnant sometime between January 1971 and December 1971 that lady would have felt stressed. It would have placed so much stress on the lady. Being happy and relaxed is the best way to try to get pregnant. If a lady had a baby in 1970 and then she got a surprise pregnancy in 1973 she would have been forced to have an abortion. Yes, the One Child Policy in the 1970s had a dark side. I agree with birth control but I disagree with abortions. I think that the forced sterilisation. I would have felt horrified if I had to apply for a birth quota. I hope that the one child policy is better nowadays.
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
16 Dec 09
Hi maximax, the woman who had fulfilled her birth quota in 71 would have been hard pressed to have an accidental pregnancy in 73 as she would have had some rather archaic type of unmeasuerd IUD forcibly fitter after the birth, or later compulsory sterilisation. The forced abortions were not classed as such but known as remedial measures which the woman would be persuaded to comply with. Not only would the woman herself suffer if she did not give into the pressure, but family members and all co workers.
@dawnald (85135)
• Shingle Springs, California
15 Dec 09
Yes, I was aware of it and it's pretty appalling. I can understand the need to reduce the birth rate, but if it isn't voluntary, it just isn't going to work. Increasing income and women's education works far better.
@poingly (605)
• United States
16 Dec 09
Agreed. I think tax breaks can also achieve a goal of reducing birth rates in modernized countries.
@ANTIQUELADY (36440)
• United States
15 Dec 09
iT ALL SOUNDS LIKE A BUNCH OF RIDICULOUS B/S TO ME. i DON'T THINK THE GOVERMENT SHOULD HAVE THAT KIND OF POWER. I do wish they would step in here some & stop all these women who keep having babies so they can draw more money & get all the freebies. That disgusts me to no end.
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Hi Aunty, well that's two completely different ends of the spectrum, China with a completely inhumane and forced and brutal policy, not much of which is known in the WEst, contrasted to women and girls playing the system for freebies on the back of irresponsible breeding.
@tdemex (3540)
• United States
15 Dec 09
As soon as the Chinese take over the world I'm wondering if they will let any other countries have kids? OPPS! I mean children! They sure have a master plan, and I don't think we are inclusive in it! Wish we'd hurry and find another planet to ruin! tdemex
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Well these days the policy is much more relaxed in China but I'm sure the stories of the way it was have been passed down if they aren't afraid of being overheard. The Chinese didn't go so far as to push the policy in Tibet or Hong Kong though, and I doubt very much they'll be taking the world over either.
@paula27661 (15811)
• Australia
16 Dec 09
This is hideous. Talk about oppression! I cannot imagine being forced to abort my baby let alone being sterilised against my will and possibly be imprisoned for attempting to bring a life into the world! A birth quota, that is appalling! Thank you for bringing this sad issue to everyone’s awareness. We are very lucky in the country we live in not be subjected to such brutality. It is disheartening to consider that we cannot do anything to alter the situation in China.
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
16 Dec 09
Hi Paula, as far as I know many of the most brutal measures are now relaxed but I may be wrong. Everyone knows though that China has the one child policy but accepts it as necessary to stop over population. The actual truth behind how it was implemented and introduced under communism was guarded as it was a total abuse of human rights.
1 person likes this
@jewels49 (1776)
• United States
15 Dec 09
Hi thea..wow living in the US this is one of those things I have never spent alot of time thinking about. Over here that would have a definite impact on reality tv shows like the Duggars and John and Kate!! Seriously though I would feel scared if my government had that much control over my life. What are the repercussions if you have more than one child? Our idea of family planning includes the handing out of birth control and education, abortions are strictly by choice, as is sterilization. I truly cannot imagine living somewhere such personal choices were out of my control.
@thea09 (18305)
• Greece
15 Dec 09
Hi Jewels, sorry I miss the allusion to the tv shows as haven't seen them. In China the repurcussons for having more than one child at the time the policy was at its most brutal was ostrascism, the home being burnt down, massive fines to pay. Before that happened the mother to be would be incarcarated within the confines of a building controlled by the national women's federation or whichever branch the woman would be answerable to. She would be subject to political indoctrination to persuade her to abort the baby. Also the couple would lose their jobs or be demoted. Most likely if she submitted or was forced into abortion she would be forceably sterilised at the same time. In remote rural areas where these things could be better hidden it was not unusal to have these forced sterilisations done on screaming women in filthy conditions with no anaesthesia.
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