About God, disbelief and turning Pasteur's wager upside-down

@DawGwath (1045)
Romania
November 5, 2010 9:15am CST
I am going to have a different approach to this matter, as opposed to many discussions that take place around here. I will use as an example Christianity and it's doctrines but I think this may apply to any religion (theoretically). Let's say I am a person that never heard of gods, religion or anything like that, so I don't believe in these things. One day I stumble upon the Bible and its teachings. I read it all and decide that I agree with everything that the teachings of God forbid, like killing, stealing, cheating my wife, lying, in short, all the things most of us agree with through morally reasoned arguments. But there is one exception. I still do not believe in God or his necessity as there is no proof for his existence. Ok, I live my life according to these teachings, or should I say guidelines, I die and I am brought in front of God. Now, the only thing I have disobeyed him with is not believing in his existence, the rest has been perfectly accomplished. Question no. 1: Will I be sent to hell just because of my disbelief? Is this one rule as important as the others or even more important? Question no. 2: Would one person that has broken every single one of God's laws during her lifetime, except for believing in him, be forgiven and allowed entrance to heaven? Why? Question no. 3 (bonus): If God gave us reason and free-will, why would he be angered if I didn't believe in him? Shouldn't he be happy that we used these traits the way they were meant to be?
2 people like this
11 responses
@gjabaigar (2101)
• Philippines
6 Nov 10
Howdo yo! DawGwath. Your questions are simple and can be answer in one common denominator with those kind of questions you have. No one can answer that. No one are positioned above or leveled with God. God is the God, He is the only One can have the all final judgements to all of us. No one can preempt nor prejudge all what God's plans to each and everyone of us all. We are all just a part of God. God can do anything whatever He wanted to be. Don't read the Bible with a wicked heart and only glorifying the sinfulness of humanity. Thus, you will always forever in your life being find only glorifying the sinfulness of Satan's works and only the wicked part of the Bible. The Bible represents the whole being of us. We are all the doers of the Bible, Christians or not Christians, even those who did not yet read the Bible. Our whole being are mixtures of the seeds of God's spiritual being and Satan's seeds of spiritual being sinfulness. Which ever seeds we are nourishing and glorifying in our spirits are what we are enduring and experiencing on our being here on this world. On both of our spiritual and physical life embodiments manifestations. Always dig deeper the golden treasures and not just only full of worms in your heart, mind, body, soul and spirit.
1 person likes this
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
6 Nov 10
Thank you for a heart-warming speech. It doesn't answer any of the questions. I can replace the words "God" and "Bible" with any other deity and scripture in any other religion and you can get the same result. A nice little sophistry I would say.
@gjabaigar (2101)
• Philippines
6 Nov 10
Then what are your right answers that suits all of your questions? I know you know them already. You are smarter than us. Pleas tell us. Or maybe you still don't know either. hahahahahaha
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
6 Nov 10
it's funny how you laugh at people just because you're so narrow minded
• United States
7 Nov 10
Brilliant! I am not Christian so I can't answer you about that religion. To me, being a Jew, I Still don't think a person Has to believe in G-d to be moral. I think not killing or raping anyone, nor stealing, nor lying in court are the main no-nos. Anyone can avoid these And avoid All the religions too.
1 person likes this
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
7 Nov 10
Also isn't it better to not believe in a god then to believe the wrong one?
1 person likes this
• United States
7 Nov 10
Ivansama,there is no such thing as the wrong G-d. He/She is the same Being. It is us people who decide which way we will worship Him/Her. So it is the religion that is a wrong fit, not G-d.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
7 Nov 10
Well l know god doesn't exist and all l was being hypothetical.
1 person likes this
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
5 Nov 10
Jesus himself said that you have to know the laws better then the prophets meaning that you need to follow all of the old testament laws which are over 600 and a lot of them deal with animal sacrifice and what not. Also you need to love god, love your family but then again hate your family and follow jesus. you also need to sell everything you have and give the money to the poor. so yeah you are going to hell in that hypothetical case. if you don't follow either one of these rules you're going to hell and god is kinda mean and really doesn't seem to care about humans
1 person likes this
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
5 Nov 10
Hehehe, ivansama, you really love to shatter all my hopes of redemption. I was mostly referring to the ten commandments and any other morally acceptable ideas, not all the craziness in the Old Testament, just forget about that. And our character finds reasonable motives to follow each of them, he doesn't follow them blindly or because they suit his needs (like the one where your wife has to obey you in everything or something like that). The only exception is the belief in God, he finds no logical and scientific explanation for him so he won't do it. So, is God that vain to punish me for my disbelief or does he care at all?
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
5 Nov 10
Haha yeah l tend to do that with people's hopes. But yeah l understand what you were asking. And it doesn't matter why the character followed all the moral things he is still going to hell because he didn't follow the craziness of the old testament l feel obligated to quote scripture here: Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ... 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Then again we also have Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Go figure.
1 person likes this
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
5 Nov 10
in conclusion: Yep god is pretty darn vain, for sure.
1 person likes this
@celticeagle (111664)
• Boise, Idaho
6 Nov 10
I don't believe in established religion. I think you would not be sent to hell. I dont think you would be excepted in Heaven to begin with because it is manufactored by the masses. All the writers of the Bible that is. (and what of all the books that weren't excepted into the Bible?) In answer to #2 again, you would never make it there. And, finally in #3 God didn't give us reason and free will. Some people don't have it. They follow the suthsayers and the big wigs in the churchs around like cattle. They just give it unto GOd and let him sort it out. What a bunch of hooey!! People today are unable to reason and do not have free will except for thinking that keeping up with the Jones' and all is the way to go. Let God do it all. Don't take any enitiative and think and govern ourselves. Heck no! Give it unto God! So sick of all that!
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
6 Nov 10
"Some people don't have it." - Sadly, I agree with you. As much as I would love to know everyone as independent beings and not just sentient robots, most of us don't have the mental power to question authority. Or even think about questioning authority.
1 person likes this
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
6 Nov 10
On the bright side, some of us do! xD
1 person likes this
@celticeagle (111664)
• Boise, Idaho
7 Nov 10
I so agree DawGwath. Think people!!
1 person likes this
@Devilova (5396)
• Indonesia
5 Nov 10
I was a moslems, so I will give my opinion from my religion. If You have a pet or what ever that You have make for You own goodness, but the fact was not like what You have imagined.What will You do?? If You can answered that, no need for me to explained more deeper.
1 person likes this
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
5 Nov 10
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you try to be more coherent, please?
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
6 Nov 10
Hehe, I agree Callum. I'm just having a philosophical approach here.
• United States
9 Nov 10
I like your posting, but what is Pasteur's wager? Did he bet that he could find a cure for hydrophobia? I believe you mean Pascal.
@Christoph56 (1509)
• Canada
6 Nov 10
If you stumbled onto a bible, and decided that you agree with everything that the bible says, then you would also believe that you should take your animals to the church to spill their blood in front of the priest to make up for your wrong doings... you would also have to stay away from women, and never touch them for a week around their period, because they are unclean, and if you do, then you will be unclean as well. If this uncleanliness lead you to having some sort of disease, then you'd have to go to your priest, and they would lock you away in a cell for a week at a time, checking on you to see if you still have the disease, if you do, you get another week, if you don't, you can go free. You would also have to have slaves, which you can buy and sell with others, as long as they have enough money for it. All of these parts are in Leviticus in the bible, plus many many more... so if you wanted to pick up a bible, and agree with it's basis, then you'd be going by these pieces as well. Technically speaking, then, you would be sent to hell for not doing these things, let alone for not believing in God.
1 person likes this
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
6 Nov 10
Hehe, yeah, well I do mention that he agrees with everything that he finds morally reasonable. To keep it short, let's say that he agrees with the Ten Commandments, except for the part where you have to believe in God. Is God that arrogant to take it into consideration? Of course that's a question for Christians and religious people in general.
• United States
7 Nov 10
1. Since the Bible makes it clear that God does exist and that no one comes to Him except through His Son, Jesus Christ, our good deeds won't save us. If you have read the Bible, which is the inspired word of God, what excuse can you offer for rejecting Him? 2. It's not just believing in God that saves a person. James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder." Acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is what saves us. 3. Why should God be happy to be rejected? On a multiple choice test, you have the freedom to chose any answer you please, but you still get points off for making the wrong choice.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
7 Nov 10
So you are admitting that your god is vain and malevolent?
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
7 Nov 10
You forgot the book of mormon!
1 person likes this
• United States
8 Nov 10
ivansama: Anyone who is willing to die in your place, as Jesus Christ has done, cannot be called vain and malevolent. DawGwath: I realize my endorsement of the Bible is not going to persuade you, particularly since you don't want the Bible or any of those other writings you mentioned to be the inspired word of God. In your effort to mock God, you mock yourself. The Bible is unique among all writings. Because he says it more eloquently than I can, please listen to the following link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs I hope and pray that you will search for God.
@nas8228 (59)
• United States
5 Nov 10
For starters, the bible never says that good people go to Heaven. In fact, it says the opposite. No man is good. We all break God's absolute laws are are all "bad" in his eyes. He originally created man for relationship with him. We have turned away from him and broken his laws. It is by his grace that he opens the door for us to redeem the relationship with him through belief in him and Jesus, the Savior. So, to answer your questions: 1. Yes. Only those in God's family will be permitted to entire his kingdom. The invitation is open to everyone, they just need to receive it. 2. Yes, but only in the scenario that that person violated those laws, THEN accepted the right to believe and belong to God eternally. If someone claimed to believe and accept Christ, then continued to habitually break God's command and show no repentance or regret for their actions, one could question whether or not they ever truly believed (but only God would truly know their heart). Jesus is not just a ticket to eternal life in the bible. True belief in him means that you accept him as Savior AND as Lord. If he is truly your Lord, you will worship and honor him through your actions. Because of our human nature, you will stumble at times, but you will be convicted in your heart to repent and turn things around. 3. He gives us free will because he knows that true love is not forced, it is a choice. He grows angry with our disbelief and our rebellion because he has laid the framework for everyone to understand that our universe did not come from nothing. We should be able to look at our world and understand that there are higher powers at work. That is the first step towards acknowledging him. Before even taking that first step, many reject his existence altogether. Others take the first step, but attribute it to other things or entities.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
5 Nov 10
The bible says nobody is righteous . And just half way trough genesis we have Noah, Lot and Abraham who are said to be righteous
1 person likes this
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
6 Nov 10
Now see the bible itself isn't quite sure whether one can be saved by faith alone. There's various paragraphs saying both things. so it's normal for this to be unclear. Now because they may say l'm making stuff up l'll give a couple of examples He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(Mark 16:16) For you render to each one according to his works (Psalm 62:12) P.S. @DawGwath isn't it awesome how we complete each other lol
1 person likes this
• United States
8 Nov 10
DawGwath 1. God wants an eternal relationship with man first. Good deeds come second. Therefore, the man who takes this approach does not do good because he rejects God. 2. Anyone who accepts Christ as a means to avoid eternal judgment alone has not truly accepted Christ. 3. God is not "all-forgiving". He gives grace to those seek it. His love is apparent in the fact that he offers this grace to anyone who seeks it. Perhaps angry wasn't the best phrasing to use, but that's what we do as human beings. We use words and phrased that we understand to explain things that may be out of our reach. God has set his commands and even though he currently offers a period of grace for those who accept it, he will eventually bring justice to those who do not follow his laws.
• India
6 Nov 10
So, you mean to say that before you read the Bible you had been a person with no commonsense, therefore you did everything that is morally wrong. Then you stumble upon Bible and common sense came to you except the most important common sense that you must believe in God. However, you started abiding the Ten Commandments. You say you did everything what the Ten Commandments asked you to do. It means you have not read the Ten Commandments. The first two commandments says "I am the Lord your God; and you should have no other God in front of you". After you die and you would claim in front of God that you had lived your life according to Ten Commandments, God would ask you did you follow the first two commandments. Ans. to Ques 1: According to me you should be sent to Hell for not believing in God, because without God's help you cannot live righteously. Your claim is false. Ans to Ques 2: Again the person who does not believe in God cannot be righteous because God's goodness seeps in one's conduct only through belief in God and through adoring and worshiping him. Ans to Ques 3: God will not be angry with you not because you did not believe in him but because you did not live righteously. What you think is righteous might not be righteousness in the site of God.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
6 Nov 10
l have an objection: Romans 3:10 says there is no one righteous. And what you're saying is people who do a ton of good still should go to hell. how sadistic is that?
1 person likes this
@DawGwath (1045)
• Romania
6 Nov 10
No, I never claimed he was an immoral person. It's just that he finds the teachings in the Bible, well, most of them, to be morally justifiable: murder, stealing, lying, all that. He considers them to be great ideas. But he finds God's existence irrational, taking into consideration the lack of proof. SO he lives the life of an exemplary human being. So Q1 - you say he will be sent to hell. That means all other commandments are null compared to the first commandment (or the first and second, depending on the confession). That means God is vain, immoral and malevolent. And I do not agree with you. Your claim, that without God you cannot live righteously, is actually false. There are many people around the world who do not believe in God (either agnostic, atheist, Buddhist, etc) but they live a life of righteousness, even by Christian standards. They have far greater morals and they do more good than most Christians I have ever met. And they do it because they want to! Not because they are afraid of Hell or because they want to please some fatuous god. Now that's what I call altruism! Q2 - same as above. Q3 - Well, how do you know what is righteousness in God's eyes? I used the Bible as an example, I am making a presumption here. But the Bible can be wrong, maybe God wants something else. Maybe God doesn't want anything. How do YOU know what is right? You interpret the Bible in your way, I do it in my way. But it's possible that we are both wrong and we will both go to Hell. Or Heaven. Or none of them. We may either take the Bible literally, and then it's worthless, or we interpret it and then everyone can be either wrong or right, it doesn't matter.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
6 Nov 10
See the bible can't be wrong. it's the word of god! it says so right there...in....the bible. am l missing something?
1 person likes this
@bestboy19 (5482)
• United States
9 Nov 10
1. If you have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and have rejected God's gift of salvation and eternal life through His son Jesus the Christ, it will be you who has chosen your fate, not God. 2. Just believing there is a God isn't going to save you. The devils believe and tremble. 3. What can be known about God is plain, because God has shown it to us. For His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So we are without excuse.
@ivansama (761)
• Bulgaria
12 Nov 10
If you have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and still support such a god, you're pretty darn twisted in my book.
@bestboy19 (5482)
• United States
13 Nov 10
How would you know, you've never read the Bible. If you have, it was with a closed mind, and that's the same as not reading it at all.
1 person likes this