Who is right?  |
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Pam and Dave live together. Dave's mom called him and asked him to stop by. Dave's mom lives down the street. Dave told pam he was going to visit with his mom and be back shortly. Dave did not come home until almost five hours later and several beers under his belt. This left Pam upset and feeling like Dave doesn't care about her feelings enough to give her a courtesy call. Dave got upset when he found out Pam was upset. He thinks the entire argument is ridiculous and is now not speaking to Pam. He feels that Pam is too controlling and has no right to be upset over the time. After all he was at his mother's house right down the street. So.. Who is wrong here? What advice would you give this couple?
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1. owlwings (5315)  | 2 months ago | This is such a common incident, one might almost say that it is 'normal'. Nearly every couple has encountered a situation like this!
I would say that both are somewhat at fault for this misunderstanding. Communication is the key to a successful relationship and Dave did not communicate as Pam expected him to and felt that he should. Her expectations of him, though, are to a certain extent unrealistic and too high. By showing her annoyance that he didn't call, she is giving messages of a lack of trust (whether or not her trust has actually diminished) and possibly echoing words that Dave has heard from his mother in the past.
Actually, Pam does have a right to be upset. She may have been worried that Dave had got into an accident or something - no news is always bad news in these situations - and she does have a right to express her concern and worry but she may have done so in a way that Dave took as 'controlling'.
Dave should have called (but then Pam could equally well have called him when he was obviously taking longer than expected) but very often "a few minutes at mom's" can turn out to be much longer without one realising it. His real fault, though, is in his reaction to Pam's anxiety. Instead of belittling her emotions, he should be concerned that she was hurt and not be upset in return. He is showing a lack of respect and concern for Pam's feelings himself.
Both people need to think about what love means and understand something more about give and take. Love is a natural thing but living together in a partnership is something that we all have to learn. Really excellent parenting sometimes teaches people the basics but, unfortunately, most of us have experience just good to average parenting and find that living together as partners is very different from living with one's parents and brothers and sisters. Many issues from the child-parent relationship are unconsciously carried over into the partnership relationship and our emotional reactions are often inappropriate for some situations. We often need to re-think our emotional responses and learn how to deal with situations differently.
My advice would be that, when the anger has subsided somewhat, the couple should sit down and talk over their behaviour and reactions to this incident in a more mutually understanding way. Both should acknowledge the other's concerns and emotions and both should admit that they behaved in a way that wasn't as trusting and caring as it might have been.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | This advice is very good. I do want to point out that Pam did tell Dave that her being upset wasn't about her not trusting him. She knew he was at his mothers, and knew he would be fine. It was the fact that she felt like he did not care about her feelings is what was bothering her. You are so correct in that we need to re-think our emotions and learn how to react in a more productive matter. Thank you.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | How do you feel Pam could have approached Dave so that a positive reaction could have occured. Right now she feels like she can't get anything right with Dave. She feels like her feelings are disregarded completely.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | Pam feels as if she is gun shy about even bringing this topic up again. She doesn't want to be emotionally shot down again. Pam is taking the time to think before she speaks.
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owlwings (5315) | 2 months ago | Being 'gun shy' is often the way that the Pams of this world feel about situations like this ... which means that the Daves win that round - and are more likely to win every round after that, doesn't it? (Probably as their father's did and very likely their grandfathers too).
Pam is going to have to do some clear thinking and homework on relationships in general and on Dave's particular background and relationship 'templates' because we all (like it or not) have templates which we use to design our relationships. We also have values that we put on relationships and rather few people put exactly the same value on a relationship as the other partner in the relationship. When you think about it, that is only logical. Each of us has a different way of thinking about how we think our lives should go and some things are more important than others (also the importance of certain things can change over time).
It is always nice to imagine that one is the most important thing in the world to one's partner but, however much they may say it, it isn't necessarily true all the time or even most of the time.
For a woman, sometimes the most important thing is to have children and raise a family. For that she needs security and, conventionally, that security is found in knowing she has a partner who is not going anywhere without her and who is going to provide for her and the family.
For a man, it may be important at a certain point to establish that he has a partner who will care for him, be a mother to his children (which is why men very often choose girls who have some of the qualities of their mothers ... and why wives very often either get on well with or cannot stand their mothers-in-law!)
Everyone is different, of course. Some girls are quite independent and don't at all expect their partners to be around all the time; some pretend that they are like this and many (most, I suspect) feel that they have made a home and a family that their partners should want to come back to at every possible opportunity. Pam is going to have to think hard about which kind she is, I suspect, and how that fits with what she wants to be and what she expects of Dave.
Dave, on the other hand, will probably not change much. What he expects of a woman is very likely modelled quite heavily on what his father (or his 'ideal' father) expected - unless he has ever told Pam any different, of course, which would indicate that he has at least thought about what a partnership is about. He has chosen Pam for certain qualities that he thought were desirable in a woman (hopefully not simply physical) and now expects her to see the courtship and agreement to live together as 'fait accomplis', so she had better knuckle down and stop belly-aching if she wants it to work!
There will probably be more incidents like the one you mention if these two can't sit down and talk through each others' expectations. Each time, Pam will feel just a little more 'gun shy' and will privately wonder each time if it's ever going to work the way she expected. Dave will be irritated but will each time feel that he was justified in thinking that Pam 'over-reacted' or 'is too controlling'. Eventually Pam may seek the 'satisfactions' that the relationship seems to lack in other areas (which may be socially acceptable or not, as the case may be). Very often this lack of communication simply leads to the breakdown of the relationship. Neither partner learns very much from this and both very often get into another very similar relationship, with predictable results!
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2. sid556 (10852) | 2 months ago | I think that they both need to be a little more understanding toward each other here. Yes, it would have been thoughtful if Dave had given Pam a call and let her know that he was going to be later than planned.He did say that he'd be back shortly. Still, he was just down the road and at his mom's. She KNEW where he was. If she were so worried she could have called over and just made sure that all was ok. Dave, upon realizing that Pam was upset should just have appologized for being late and let it drop. Not talking to her is not going to help the situation. Neither of them are really right here.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | She wasn't worried. She just wanted the respect of being notified that it wasn't going to be a short while. Why should she have to wait up for him if it was going to be so late? She could have made other plans instead of waiting on him. She wanted him to maybe be a bit more courteous. I think maybe it just common decency. What would a phone call have hurt? She often calls him when she is running late, and wants the same in return.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | I am sure she probably over reacted a bit too, but he isn't speaking to her. So he is being a bit harsh too.
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owlwings (5315) | 2 months ago | Yes, I completely agree that Dave is being harsh. I'd go further to say that he is being childish, pig-headed, disrespectful and uncaring, though perhaps I'm being a bit harsh here!
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sid556 (10852) | 2 months ago | I agree that Dave is way more to blame in this one. I guess maybe I thought that she jumped all over his case when he arrived home and was just thinking that it could have been handled differently & especially since he had been drinking. Jumping on his case would put him on the defensive. I'm thinking now that I misunderstood that part of this story.Yes...it would have been respectful for him to call her. He should of. The silent treatment is just childish and & won't do anything to help the problem.
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | Pam was a bit upset. She did not yell, but expressed that she was hurt. I am sure Dave took it wrong. In which in fact I know he did.
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sid556 (10852) | 2 months ago | Then I did misunderstand. She should be able to express her feelings openly and honestly in a respectful way without fearing being punished so to speak for how she feels. It is not a good situation at all. What happens in these sort of situations if it continues is that she will become suppressed and try to hold in her feelings if she senses that she will upset him and then he will do whatever he wants and treat her however he wants and she will just feel miserable. Is this an isolated incident or does it happen often?
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barbara7321 (188) | 2 months ago | She supresses her feelings a lot. She has never been in a relationship where she has had to do this before.
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3. carrillo_zeny (437) | 2 months ago | i can understand dave if he calls or told pam that he will be going to his mom's house. even if its just a block away. its a good attitude if he calls. anyways, calling is just a minute to do and so easy to dial and its a good gesture that you respect your girl. so that she wont get worried and its not a big deal actually calling will be fine. cause its hard to wait and expect something and then it wont happen.
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4. rg0205 (1710) | 2 months ago | I think Dave is wrong because he should've told Pam.
Then again, if such things happen, I think there is a breakdown in communication between the two so it should be sorted out. Some couples think it's okay to go out without giving courtesy calls to one another. For other people, it matters a whole lot.
They should talk it through and talk about the expectations in the relationship to avoid conflicts of the same nature in the future.
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| MickiMarcus (8) | 2 months ago | I agree there is a communication issue here. This is definitely a topic that needs to be discussed between Dave and Pam to avoid such problems in the future. This would also be a great way to determine if this is maybe something that happens every time he visits his mom. Maybe he should ask Pam to join him in visiting with his mom. That just might open up a whole new bonding avenue for all 3 parties involved. I used to visit my mom several times a week when I lived closer to her and sometimes I would go over there intending on staying for a short time and end up gone for 3-4 hours. This was a problem between my ex-husband and I because he knew it was going to happen, he expected it to happen, he was okay with it before it happened, but as soon as I would get home the yelling would commence. I found out later it was because he felt left out. But, with that said, he was invited to come with me every time I went so that "I felt left out" argument was lame to say the least.
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5. sweetgirl_k1 (3157) | 2 months ago | I think that Dave should have told Pam that he was going to his mother's house. That way Pam wouldn't have been worried about Dave being gone for 5 hours. At least if he was at his mom's house right down the street drinking beers it wouldn't have been as bad as if he was at someone else's house or at a bar drinking far away. I probably would have been upset too because I wouldn't have known where he was for 5 hours and I would have been thinking the worst. He should have called and just told her he was going to be gone to his mom's for a while.
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6. happy6162 (2500) | 2 months ago | Dave is wrong he should just have called Pam and told her he was going to be there for awhile. Pam could have called but Dave might have thought she was just checking up on him and he would have gotten angry. They need to have a discussion about communication better between the two of them.
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| 7. pinky173 (5) | 2 months ago | Why didn't Pam call Dave?
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8. Hatley (21687) | 2 months ago | hi barbara both are at fault somewhat. as they are not married I guess you 'could say Pam should loosen up a bit,but I detest that beer bit, he must have'gon some place besides moms to get buzzed up with beer.he should have respected Pam enough to have told her the truth about what he was going to do. Also I would advise them if they really are in love to get married not shack up. marriage would make them respect each other much more as they have a bond to live up to.
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| MickiMarcus (8) | 2 months ago | I agree somewhat but if they live together as a couple they should respect each other as a married couple would. I don't agree that a couple should get married just to be able to live together and be "politically correct". Just because you marry someone does not mean they respect you more. Sometimes it turns out that a married person will push the limits just because of the commitment to love cherish honor respect and put up with in better and worse times until death. Sometimes the death part comes in the form of the emotional and mental rather than physical.
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| 9. MickiMarcus (8) | 2 months ago | Well, honestly, if it was just him at his mom's house havin a few beers and visiting with his mom then there should not be a problem. If he's really sittin at his mom's house havin a few beers with another female not of relation to him then that is a totally different situation and Pam has every right to be upset. Dave should consider whether he would be okay with Pam going off for several hours getting intoxicated and coming home oblivious to any wrong doings. If he's okay with that then maybe Pam should re-evaluate the real reason why she is upset. Dave should also take into account whether Pam would do such a thing to him and if the answer is "No" then maybe he should apologize for being inconsiderate of her feelings and make a better effort next time to keep her posted if he's going to be gone longer than an hour or so. Personally, I would be okay if it was just going to Mom's house to chill for a little while..... as long as it would be okay if the tables were turned. What's good for the goose to do should be good for the goose's wife to do too.:)
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| 10. laurynashlee06 (89) | 2 months ago | I wouldn't say that neither of them are really wrong but I think that Dave should've atleast told Pam that he was going to be there longer than he expected.
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