Using the word "hate" when referring to your' child?

United States
June 10, 2008 1:07pm CST
I just read a discussion where a womans' teenage daughter was disrespectful to her, so she wanted to vent - and that's ok. But she used the word 'hate' when referring to her teenager and that bothers me. Only one person called her on it and other mylotters actually defended the mother, saying that she was only venting. I understand venting because your' child hurt your' feelings or upset you in some way but to use the word 'hate' when referring to your' child, whether venting or not is uncalled for. I get mad at my kids too, but c'mon! Hate? When you post anywhere online, in any forum and you say things like that to total strangers, do you then have the right to get upset when they call you on it?
9 people like this
16 responses
• India
11 Jun 08
I think she is just used to the word ‘hate’ without any conscious thought, like most of us are. For myself, I can say this much that off late, I am consciously practising the replacement of hate with dislike. I feel that the word hate denotes an extreme emotion…something from which there is no backing out. Once you hate a person, you cant just go back on your emotions and start liking that person say, a few months later! Well, regarding the use of word ‘hate’ for our children…no question of it. If I start hating my own child, I would have to start hating myself first.
3 people like this
• United States
11 Jun 08
I don't think that she really meant that she hated her child. She did not say "I hate my daughter" she said "Sometimes I hate teenagers". She was venting but that word is used too carelessly and it hurts people. It's such a strong and cruel word to use when referring to teenagers or anyone. That was my point. That we should be careful with that particular word. I like that you are consciouslyy replacing "hate" with dislike. It shows that you are aware of the damage that a word can do and you care enough to change it. I admire that.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
What she said was in her opening line "Was Sometimes I hate Teenagers." The hate was not at all applied or directed at her daughter, and she even said that it was bad wording.... I know what conversation you are talking about quite well, and let me assure you that that mother would DIE for her child. I came to her defense as she was being judged heavily and not at all what she meant by her opening line......
2 people like this
• United States
11 Jun 08
Angel, That is exactly my point. I think I have made it clear that she did not tell her daughter that she hated her. You may know this woman in person or perhaps you are close internet friends, but hundreds of us do not know her. So when you make a statement like the one that was made in her title, you have to be prepared to have some shocked mothers call you on it. People should know the implications of such a strong word before they use it. Venting or not. It sends the wrong message when you are talking to strangers.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
Maybe you should re-read my discussion. I did not say that she took offense. I TOOK OFFENSE. I said that only one other person called her on it and other mylotters ( apparently you) defended her. You may use the word hate when referring to something your' child said or did. I do not. In my experience, children do not hear "I hate what you did." They hear "I hate you." And that is a painful thing. I know that from my own experience. "Hate" when referring to any child, whether you are referring to actions or whatever, is shocking to me. Her discussion made it clear that she loves her child. I'm not saying that she doesn't. I am simply expressing my opinion that 'hate' is too strong a word to be used carelessly.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
Again I am going to say this it was NOT NOT Erilyn that took offense but I! me And she was being judged far to harshly. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill, and I disagree with you, some times our children do need to know that we hate HATE their behavior. If my son stole something I would say I hate that he did that... I hate that he broke his arm, I hate that my son argues like that with his father. Put blame where blame needs to be.... I did not come in here to disrupt or argue myself but to clear up your point that it was Erilyn that took offense.... if you read the discussion you will find that it was I who said something.
2 people like this
@mummymo (23706)
13 Jun 08
I am sorry Rebecca Lynn but you have just done much worse by making it seem as though she said she hated her child or her childs behaviour. What she actually said was I hate teenagers sometimes! I think most mothers have felt that way but irrespective of that you have misrepresented what this lady actually said. I could never hate my children but I do hate their behaviour that does not make me a bad mother and you a perfect one or vice versa it just makes us different! I don't know your experience in life but I respectfully would say that maybe something has been done or said to you in the past that makes you very sensitive to this word or that thought and has made you overreact! Did it ever occur to you that only one other mylotter "called her on it" (and after the poster explained what she meant apologised for being harsh!) because many of us have been there and experienced it and actually read into her post what was meant rather than twisting things ever so slightly to get the validation that you need? Well that is the impression I have taken from this discussion.
2 people like this
@mummymo (23706)
17 Jun 08
Erilyn reading and taking on the whole discussion and not just taking exception to one word in a title and concentrating on that is what is the heart of mylot! No need to thank me whatsoever just so glad that I did read it and that I could know that what is written here was a severely twisted account of what was said! hugs xxx
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
Thank you Mummymo for taking the time to read what I had said. I think what bothers me the most about this post is that while i may not have chosen the proper words for the title of my discussion, the revelance of the discussion was never even brought up. Instead of taking it as a whole just the title had been taken. Nowhere in the orginal discussion did it say that I did not mean that I hated my child or that it was something I had said to her, that was put into a response to another poster in this discussion. If you read my discussion never once did I say that I hated my daughter, in fact other than in the title I did not use the word hate in my actual discussion.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
I have apologized amny times for the way the title was worded, and not once did I get upset about anything someone else said about it. I simply apologized for the way I worded the title and explained what I meant by it. The way you worded your discussion makes it appear that I either stated that I hated my child, or told my child that I hated her. From reading you post it does make it appear that what I actually said was taken out of context. Did I use the word Hate? Yes I did. Did I word the title worng? Yes I did. Did I once during my discussion use the word hate? No I did not. Did I ever say that I hated my daughter? No I didn't. Am i upset that you posted this? No I am not but I do wish that when you did you would have refferred to the behavior in question and not just focus on the title that I put on the discussion. You have every right to say anything you want on MyLot which is one of the reasons I enjoy being here. It gives me oppertunity to vent on things, and have discussions about things that I would not have the oppertunity to do otherwise. Never once did I get upset about any of the responses I got, and not once did I jump down anyones throat. I do apologize that the title I had written to my discussion offended you. I typed something out in the heat of the moment, and while most people took it the way it was intended, some didn't. I could say that the way your discussion was written slanted at not what the discussion was actually about but the only thing you focused on which was the word hate. Unfortuantly people don't always take things in the context they were ment in and that is partly my fault for the wording that was used in my title. I don't apperciate saying that I had gotten upset over something someone had said when I didn't. What I had did was apologize for the wording of the title and explain what I meant by it. Yet that was missing also from your discussion. We are all entitled to our opinions, that is one of the great things about this country, we are also entitled to explain our actions if that is needed as well.
2 people like this
• United States
17 Jun 08
Again, I thank you for coming into this discussion and explaining your' side of things. And I apologize that I wasn't here when things 'blew up' when your' friends showed up. I want to clear something up. I did not say that you became upset. I'm pretty sure that I made it clear that it was someone other than you. She seems to get upset fairly easily. As for the incident in your' post, you did not say (that I recall) that your' daughter told you that she wished that you would hurry up and die. People do see things (especially the written word) from differing views and I never meant to make it sound as though you said that you hated her to us or to her. I think I was careful to explain that in my answers. I understand that you mis-spoke in your' title. It happens. But it's what got me thinking about that particular word and how often it is used carelessly. I never set out to hurt you or get your' friends all puffed up. I apologize for that. I am glad to hear that you and your' daughter sat down and worked things out and I am saddened to hear of your' diagnosis. Cancer has touched my life too and you will be in my prayers. Differing opinions aside, I pray you will beat this.
@kezabelle (2974)
10 Jun 08
I think hate is a really strong word and shouldnt be thrown around. I try never to tell my children off when im angry it doesnt help and usually makes you say something you dont really mean hence they (and me ) get time out and then il discuss what they did wrong. I dont even think id tell my child I hate something they did no matter how bad it was I just dont think there is any need and definitley no need to say you hate your child sometimes I dont like what they are doing but I always make sure they know I love them no matter what
2 people like this
• United States
10 Jun 08
I feel the exact same way. Hate is a word that is thrown around carelessly. I don't always like the things that my children say or do but that isn't a word that I would ever use when referring to them or their' actions.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
I didn't tell my daughter off and did not show her how upset I was at the time when the discussion was written. Again I should have phrased it better, but I still stand behind the fact that instead of venting on her I did it here.
1 person likes this
• United States
17 Jun 08
Have you thought about telling her how much it hurts you when she says the mean things that she does to you? She might begin to realise, Hey, Mom is human too and that hurts.
• Philippines
11 Jun 08
i haven't seen the discussion you were referring to. But i think it's not wise to have such rants published online. Even if the woman is just venting, but the fact that it's been published and read by a lot of strangers makes it look bad. I'm not against people who rant online, but doing so is also like hurting the person emotionally, even if that person won't be able to read your rants. I did it once (vents, i mean) in my blog and my husband told me, is it necessary to air out such thoughts? And I believe he's right. It isn't proper and just makes the situations worse. Besides, if I was the one in the shoes of the person being ranted about, what will I feel? I hated our former classmates when they talked behind our back, and such discussions like you mentioned is the same, I'd feel hurt. Well, that mother should have thought at it first before publishing her vents in myLot. She should have thought of getting in her daughter's shoes once she have read the discussion. And I'd say, putting the "hate" word will just worsen their relationship. Instead of having a solution, they'll just end up fighting each other more often.
2 people like this
• United States
11 Jun 08
It is a harsh word. I understand ranting and needing to have others sympathize with you but I think there is a line that gets crossed sometimes, even accidentally. We should just remember to choose our words wisely.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
I was venting and I have apologized several times about the wording I used in the title. As far as it being behind her back I did let her read what I wrote and she understands that I did not say that I hated her in the slightest. After she read what was written she understood better what she said had hurt me and apologized for the entire thing. I apologized to her for the wording used in the title and she stated she understood that it was not her but the behavior. She actually apperciated me venting here and not on her. She understands that pressures can build up after some of the nasty hurtful things she had said. After reading what was written we can both talk a bit better about what happened and ways to prevent it from happening again.
@Stiletto (4579)
10 Jun 08
I didn't see the discussion you're talking about. I think hate is a word that people often throw around without really thinking about what they're saying, but it's not a word I would use with regard to my child, nor would I generally expect other parents to do so. I understand people wanting to come on here and vent. Well ... I don't really because I don't really understand people wanting to spill all the gory details of their private lives on here but I guess some people are comfortable doing that. Anyway, venting is fair enough but once someone says something in open forum then it's fair game. People have every right to call them out on it or to at least express their own opinions. I'm tired of seeing people get "upset" because someone has dared to disagree with them. It's a discussion forum - anything posted on here is open for discussion. If people just want to make speeches and have everyone agree with them then they're in the wrong place.
1 person likes this
@Stiletto (4579)
11 Jun 08
Thanks for the link Angelwhispers. Well I guess we all see things differently because personally if I had come across that discussion I wouldn't have taken it so literally. I don't read it as her saying she hates her daughter or anything like that. I think it's written with humour more than anything else and as someone who has been a mother (and therefore an embarassment!) to a teenage girl it struck a chord with me lol.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
Stiletto, here is the link, and it was I that came to her defense. What she meant was the attitude, the lead in line was worded badly and she said that. She was being judge very heavy. http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/1553874.aspx
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
By the way She did not at all get upset it was I who came to her defense.
2 people like this
@lingli_78 (12822)
• Australia
11 Jun 08
i never think that using the word hate is right... it is ok to dislike the actions or behaviours of a person... but you can't dislike and even more hate the person... hate is a very strong word to be used and i will be very careful in using it... i am just amazed that some people can use the word hate so easily... especially to their children... that is really totally unacceptable... take care and have a nice day...
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
She did not say it to her child. She said it in reference to teenagers in general when they are being disrespectful. It is a strong word and maybe she didn't mean it, but shouldn't we be careful about using that word?
• Australia
11 Jun 08
People often don't think how much their words can hurt when they are angry, it is very selfish but true. Parents have to pay close attention to their communication with their children because they are teaching them how to communicate to society as adults. Maybe this woman was told by her mother/parents that she was hated too?
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
I can't speak to how she was raised. I'm sure she just said it out of frustration. I do agree with you in that we have to be careful in how (and what) we communicate to our children. I would not want to unintentionally cause damage because I didn't think before I spoke.
@MsTickle (25180)
• Australia
18 Jun 08
There is a person here who punishes their offspring in the most nasty and cruel ways in my opinion. This person is totally selfish and expects so much from her children. I relly think she pushes them to the limit and I don't mean in a loving, parental way but in a way that belittles, humiliates and to my way of thinking is truly damaging. It shocks me to see that so many side with this person. I feel so gutless for not calling them on it but it enrages them when it happens and then they post another "crying vent" as the victim of the nasty people who dared say anything negative to them. This person exagerates (and that's the polite term)as well to make her stories sound better. There is so much in the news regarding dysfunctional families and even here in Australia shocking things are ocurring. People hear things and don't report them and then tradgedies happen. Some people should never be allowed to have children. I feel somewhat ashamed of myself for being so angered by this type of thing because obviously these people have mental issues and need help. Someone, somewhere has to do something.
1 person likes this
• United States
18 Jun 08
MsTickle, I have always respected your opinion and I agree that things have gotten out of hand. This discussion was meant to point out that words can and often do hurt. I never meant for it to be an attack on the mother of the girl. Her friends saw it differently. I have read every post in this discussion, including the ones from the mother and I have apologized but that has been either over looked or just ignored. So I digress. Sometimes discussions get out of hand. I'll chalk it up that. Thank you for your' post. I have all ready read the "crying vent" discussion that was spun off from this one. Best to ignore it.
1 person likes this
@MsTickle (25180)
• Australia
18 Jun 08
Trust me. I missed the point completely and responded to the parenting part of things. My oops! I think this discussion got slightly out of hand. The way I see it, the hate post was simply about the frustrations of teens and this post was about word use. There was really no need for people to start tearing strips off each other. Things can get so (unnecessarily nasty on here) Ouch!
1 person likes this
@bellaofchaos (11538)
• United States
14 Jun 08
Before I write my Opinion on it I will first put in the definition of hate. hate Pronunciation verb, hat·ed, hat·ing, noun –verb (used with object) 1. to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry. 2. to be unwilling; dislike: I hate to do it. –verb (used without object) 3. to feel intense dislike, or extreme aversion or hostility. –noun 4. intense dislike; extreme aversion or hostility. 5. the object of extreme aversion or hostility. You can find this on dictionary.com When I read you title I was a bit huh how could a mother say they hated their child. But then I got a link to the other discussionand read it and saw how you interpretted it. Your discussion misinterprets that discussion you made a totally different discussion from her words and twisted them to suit you. Using the word "hate" when referring to your' child? Your interpretation above and below. But she used the word 'hate' when referring to her teenager and that bothers me. The actual context... I really hate teenagers sometimes Let use the sentence and fill it in with a word from the definition. I really dislike teenager sometimes. That is me filling it in with the definition given of hate. one of the meanings of hate. and it is geared towards all teenagers not her daughter I read the whole discussion which you say above that she stated that she used it refferring to her teenage daughter. Hmmm it was to all teenagers and sometimes.... here is your discussion question one of them When you post anywhere online, in any forum and you say things like that to total strangers, do you then have the right to get upset when they call you on it? Yes you can have a right to get upset about anything you want at anytime you want. No one has the right to tell you what you can and can not be upset about it especially if you're called wrongly because a person doesn't take the time to read and process and just sees the word hate. Is it right for you to judge someone so harshly on something that isn't what you say it is???? I'm a parent of 5 kids two with disabilities and I have tss's and pyschiatrists and therapist and we work with the children individually and they always tell me that you can tell them you hate or dislike their behavior as long and you make it clear that it's their behavior not them. I find that you sat here and chose to tear a person down because in the heat of the moment she chose a work you don't use. Bully for you. You chose not to use that word at all. But stike one for you too for not reading the whole discussion and stepping back and realizing that the title was not the sum of the discussion. Not everyone is calmed down by the time they make a discussion sometimes they only calm after they vent and don't realize what they write or how they write it. but in any case we are a community that is supposed to be here for each other not point out our faults and then tear a person to shreds becuase she using ONE word that you don't like and it's geared in generalization. It was a title. Now if she was going on and saying I hate my daughter I can't stand her. Then I would be shocked and upset. But the use of I hate teenagers. That is use in emotion and hate can be used a dislike to an extreme aversion. So there are levels of hate and if you actually processed the true discussion and not the title then you would see it was a mother who was venting about a child and needed to have our support. Also no one here makes you read the discussion that you don't like..Why even continue to read it why not pass it by and not respond at all? It's all about choices and how we chose to respond and interact with eachother.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
15 Jun 08
wow Bella is all I can say. I think you put it in better words then I ever could. You put it into perspective in a way I don't think I could match. (Well maybe if I had a week I could). Will you be my new hero?
1 person likes this
• United States
16 Jun 08
Erilyn, I don't know people look up to hero's alot. I would hate to disappoint you at some point since I'm human and therefor prone to mistakes. LOL!! But I try to be as obvious as possible when I'm trying to prove a point and I hope the OP of this discussion got that point. I also tried to be as thorough as possible with facts and not all with feelings. Facts are a lot harder to side step and make you face things head on. LOL!!! When I want I can be a formiddable oppenant. But I will say my spelling is horrendous. LOL!! Thank you and I hope that my thoughts got the OP thinking. No one deserved what she did no matter how poor the title of a discussion was written and You have every right to say and feel and express yourself the way you want with out someone trying to through a negative perspective on it out there and twisting the meaning to suit them. As a fellow mother and human being I couldn't let this injustice go by. I hope things with your daughter are going good and here is a big hug for both of you...((((((((((((((()))))))))))))) Because you are a very strong woman and mother and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
1 person likes this
• Regina, Saskatchewan
16 Jun 08
She's my hero, she's mine - back off, back off I say! LOL Just kidding - this thread needs some lightening up! Well said as always bella! Rebeccalyn's stance on this is out of line and we know what Erilyn meant, because we are mother's too with a sense of BALANCE about kids and the feelings they engender in us. Rebeccalyn needs to rethink her god complex a bit a get real about motherhood! I also notice she hasn't bothered to answer my post to her - it's just above yours here bella.
2 people like this
• Regina, Saskatchewan
14 Jun 08
I am the first person to stand up against the use of the word hate. HOWEVER I am also smart enough to realize a euphemism when I see one and to be able to distinguish between it and the true meaning of the statement it was used in. GET A GRIP Rebecca. EVERYONE on the face of the earth who has ever had a teenager has said or thought (if they would be honest about it) "God I hate teenagers!" We are not talking about actually hating a child, we are talking about the use of a common phrase that express frustration but NOT hate in the strict definition or sense of the word. It was used in the title of the discussion. Upon reading the discussion itself it was obvious what was really meant by the lead line and it certainly wasn't a hateful post against a child. People need to learn to read and put into perspective the ENTIRE message and not jump on a poster over one little word, basically taken out of context. So yes, she had the right to get upset and you had NO right to call her on something she didn't mean, but YOU ascribed a meaning to that wasn't meant at all. Shame on you!
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
16 Jun 08
Hehehh I think i have posted more on this discussion than anyone else did lol. What bothered me most about this discussion is the fact that one word from my entire discussion was taken. Never anywhere in the orginal post did it say that I did not use the term towards my child herself, nor did I use the word hate in my orginal discussion other than the title. It was not made clear until further in the discussion that there was no doubt I loved my child and that I did not say to her that I hated her. We all know and we are all guilty of it ourselves that not everone reads all the posts in a discussion just posts on the discussion itself. And itell you what we will share Bella lol. I am sure we can arrange the days lol.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
16 Jun 08
Oh I have noticed. You would have thought that something more would have been said by her. I think I have posted more on this discussion, well besides maybe Angel. While I might have used the word hate in the title of my discussion, I never actually meant that I hated my daughter, while this discussion seems to be geared towards hate, while not actually saying it. So you have to ask yourself at this point which is worse, the use of the word hate or the actual hate felt by the discussion here?
1 person likes this
• Regina, Saskatchewan
16 Jun 08
Hi Eriyn - notice Rebecca hasn't responded to common sense? LOL
1 person likes this
@Hatley (163781)
• Garden Grove, California
10 Jun 08
no of course not but I think she was overreacting and did not really realize she had put that down in writing. I imagine she was upset when she saw she had used the word hate. I mean sometimes we say I'd like to kill my hysband when he does so and so,but we are really joking, we are not at all serious. maybe that was what was in the back of the lady's mind when she wrote that.you are right she should not getupset when people call her on the use of hate.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
When you are typing, you have the time to choose your' words wisely, even when venting. The mother made it clear that she DOES love her child and did not tell her child that she hated her. It was the Title of the discussion that rocked me. "Hate" is thrown around too carelessly. What happens if her daughter logs on to mylot and sees the title of that discussion? Children do not hear "I hate what you did" they hear "I hate you." My point is, I wish people would try to be more aware of the damage that word can cause when used carelessly.
• United States
11 Jun 08
Hatley, she did not get upset at all, it was I who came to her defense. She took the criticism like a champ and tried to explain her choice of the word hate was bad.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
Thank you Angel and yes I did try to explain that in the moment I was writing it I may have used the wrong wording. After it waswritten and posted and i was a bit calmer I realized the error. Unfortuantly you can't edit something already posted. and yes my daughter did see the post, and she understood immedatly that it was not saying I hated her only that I was very upset about the behavior.
2 people like this
@cream97 (29087)
• United States
14 Jun 08
Yes, I saw the discussion, but that does sound a bit harsh.. I did not post at this discussion, because I disliked how it was titled.. I would never say hate.. That is too much of a strong word..
1 person likes this
• United States
14 Jun 08
Have you read the other discussion Cream?
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
I can see using the word hate when talking about something my child may have done or said. To use the word hate when referring to my child, there's just no reason for it. My kids do things that I hate all of the time, but I hate the thing they do, not them.
1 person likes this
• United States
11 Jun 08
I know that she was just venting and more than likely chose the word out of habit. (I hate this or that) but Hate is a word that means the very worst of wishes against someone or something. I could just never use it when referring to any child whether they were annoying or not.
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
Silently, that was what I was refferring to the attitude not my child herself. She knows how much she is loved and I would never tell her I hated her. Again I apologize for the wording I used in the title of my discussion but not once in the discussion did I say that I hated my child nor did I say it to her in anyway shape or form. I did allow her to read the discussion I wrote and she took it to mean the behavior and not her.
• Australia
11 Jun 08
I think the word hate has been over used - just like children and adults tell you they're 'starving' when they just mean they feel hungry. In this case, in the story you tell about this woman talking about her child, I am hoping she meant that she didn't like (or hate) her childs actions and not her child - very different things.
• United States
11 Jun 08
That's exactly what she meant. She did not like the disrespectful way that her daughter had treated her. She does not hate her child. (As you can see from the argument above). I just feel (and it's why I started this discussion) that the word 'hate' is over used and it is used carelessly. I think we should be a whole lot more careful with that word because when used wrongly it can cause damage.
• United States
13 Jun 08
I do think that this topic is uncalled for as a direct consequence for a title in a post. Whether it was termed badly or not, the poster never said she hated her daughter. Every one who is condemning her behavior and use of words should have read and given it thought before you answered. Dealing with a teenager is not the easiest thing to do in anyone's life. How many of you have opened yourself to damaging consequences and judgmental conversations such as this by making a statement about something your child did without realizing how it would make you sound? How many of you have made an error in judgment when dealing with your child's actions? I proudly admit that I have made mistakes in dealing with my children, because they help me grow and learn how to handle it better the next time. Read the post again, Ladies and Gentlemen. Not once during the entire discussion did the poster say she hated her daughter. She did not say she responded rudely or overreacted to the situation. She handled it correctly by not tolerating her daughter's behavior. This title was taken out of context for the result of a good debate. Not that I mind a good debate, but aren't we all being just a bit harsh in judging a poorly written title? If poorly written titles were the reason for MyLot, you would all have millions of posts after your names.
1 person likes this
@Erilyn (3020)
• United States
13 Jun 08
Great point Ranting! Debates are good I think as well, but for a good debate all the facts need to be presented I think. and we are human we all make mistakes. Mine just happened to be in an online forum because of a "poorly written title" (sorry I used the phrase, I liked the way you put it hope you don't mind). After reading your response though I do have to say it made me think about a few things, Yes I may have chosen a title that became "contravertial" (can't spell today but you get my meaning) shall we say, but who is politically correct all of the time? How many people can honestly say that in their lives they have never said anything that didn't offend someone? Not only that but I am sure at some point in time we have all said something hurtful to someone out of emotion and wished we could take it back? We are all guilty of it at some point in our lives. I just happened to do it more publicly then most people do.