Dating someone who's married?

United States
December 28, 2008 12:11pm CST
Have you ever dated or had a relationship with someone who was married? Do you think it's wrong? I've recently discovered that an aquantance is having a relationship with a married man. I feel this is wrong on so many levels, so I've had to cut communications with this person. I can't even be their friend if this is the sort of lifestyle they choose to live. I don't condone it, won't support it, and want nothing to do with it. What would you do if you found out a friend was having an affair with a married person?
16 people like this
76 responses
@ravinskye (8237)
• United States
28 Dec 08
I don't think it is right either. I couldn't imagine finding out that my husband was with someone else. I don't know how anyone could do that to someone. I think I would probably do the same thing that you have done. I couldn't support my friend doing something like that. I think I would give her a chance to end it but if she didn't then I would be done with her until she did.
2 people like this
• United States
28 Dec 08
What is the situation on the man? Is he going home to his wife every night? Are there children involved? Is the couple separated, and he is moving on? If the man is cheating then yeah' that is wrong, if the family dynamic is already broken then I can see moving on, I'm not making excuses but the marriage contract can have a flaw in it where and when people are in situations where they are being betrayed. That was as I read in the Bible the only condition allowable for divorce is if there was a betrayal.
2 people like this
• United States
28 Dec 08
She's not a very close friend, just someone I see around now and then, and have chatted with once or twice. But now I will not chat with her whenever I see her.
1 person likes this
@weasel81 (2496)
• Australia
28 Dec 08
that's how my ex-sister inlaw broke up with husband, a few yrs back with a family friend and all. 6 kids were involoved and they all now live up in queensland australia. all seperated, my bro inlaw has a girlfriend but i don't know about anyone else. stu
2 people like this
• United States
29 Dec 08
I think each situation is unique and has to be judged upon it's own merit we are all unique individuals and the circumstances of our lives are all different. Every break up scatters what was to what will be where new doors open and old doors are sometimes shut. We have to be careful of the people that we judge for one day we might find that we are also judging our own actions. Karma it has a way of dealing with people and maybe the husbands wife needs to examine her life and maybe the husband is guilty or maybe it is the fault of your acquaintance with out knowing all of the details it is really hard to judge if your actions are the right actions for this situation. Be ye not the first to cast a stone for the sin to be convicted of could be your own.
3 people like this
• United States
20 Jan 09
Another discussion similar to this one was created called Promiscuity, Here is a link; http://www.mylot.com/w/discussions/1875055.aspx My response to the discussion Promiscuity is on page #3 response #21 While you are here. My response to this particular discussion is found on page #2 response #13
@ANTIQUELADY (36440)
• United States
29 Dec 08
i don't condone it but i wouldn't lose a good friend over her doing it. u got a walk a mile in other people's shoes sometimes.
1 person likes this
@ANTIQUELADY (36440)
• United States
30 Dec 08
thank u. bet she's not perfect & who would let a good friend go over what they are doing. i can see she wouldn't stand by her friends if they wren't doing to suit me. i don't think you turn your back on them when they are doing something wrong. that's not any of her buisness to start with.
• Singapore
30 Dec 08
Thank goodness there are more people like you walking the path of the understandiing. Cheers.
1 person likes this
@Ravenladyj (22904)
• United States
30 Dec 08
who would let a good friend go over what they are doing. thats my feeligns as well....As far as I'm concerned if any of my friends walked away from our friendship SOLELY because I have two men in my life then they werent my friend to begin with...some of my friends consider my having a boyfriend to be cheating on my husband and they totally dont agree with it at all BUT they are still my friends none the less because like I said in an earlier post, I'm MORE than just my intimate relationships and its all those other qualities and factors that they cherish in me ya know..
@ANW517 (30)
• United States
29 Dec 08
I'd tell my friend that it's wrong, and that he/she should be prepared for the consequences of his/her actions. And that those consequences could be dire...
1 person likes this
• United States
30 Dec 08
Mentalward, See above or go straight to the one I pointed out above at post #32... Read them all lest you be a liar, and which sin is worse? False witness? Here maybe you need a stone to cast, would you throw the first stone?
@mentalward (14691)
• United States
29 Dec 08
The only cursing I am seeing is coming from you, Xia.
@shebeck (114)
• Jamaica
29 Dec 08
XiaXueYi is missing the point in my response, he is entitled to his opinion as well as everyone else, all I am trying to say is that no one is judging anyone here, opinions are being expressed and nothing is wrong with that. What I find irritating though is that there is a right and wrong to everthing and people would rather hear that when something is wrong that it is ok to do and nothing is wrong with it. I grew up in a christian home and I believed strongly the teaching of the Bible and when the Bible says someting is wrong, there is no going around it and if I quoted something from the precious Bible that I read and share with others I am not condeming anyone to hell, just telling them that God will not be pleased with such action and what his words say on it. It might not be what everyone wants to hear, but hey, we all have choices and it is the choices that we make that will affect us some way somehow, be it wrong or right.
• United States
28 Dec 08
katsmeow, I am more shocked that you ended the friendship with the person. Do not judge so harshly! Right or Wrong it is their choice and their life, not yours to try to control. When you left you were trying to control them by saying my way or the highway. If I found out I might voice my concerns and be respectful, but in no way end a friendship because of it. What kind of friend would I be if I did that. Should things go wrong, they will need a good friend to lean upon. I read in your writing that it may prove useful to look into values and respect of other people's rights. I myself have high standards, but I do not condem those who fall. If we all were perfect, then why would we need friends.
1 person likes this
• United States
28 Dec 08
It was not a friend, mearly a person I chat with on occasion. I see no problem with only surrounding myself with people of high morals and values. Those you surround yourself with show what sort of person you are. I do not want to be assosciated with people who do something I am so opposed to.
• United States
28 Dec 08
I totally agree with surrounding ones self with good people. I do the same, but I do not judge those that I count as friends. Thank you for the clarification.
• Singapore
29 Dec 08
"I am sure that if you read the bible you know hell is a place no human wants to go" Why thank you Captain Obvious. Anyway, back to the topic. While I don't agree completely with XiaXueYi on the point that everyone in this thread is adopting a holier-than-thou stance, I do agree that the bulk of posters here are ignoring the fact that: 1) The issue has been poorly specified. If both husband and wife have divorce letters in hand, I don't think that dating would be quite as sacrilegious as you guys make it out to be. 2) The OP is giving her friend the silent treatment. Way to go. Now all you need is a bag of popcorn to enjoy the dramaz. Have fun. It's like a theater now, you can watch what's going on, but you sure aren't going to be able to change it. Great job. You should be a therapist or something. 3) Extra-marital affairs are obviously wrong, and it's just stupid to keep posting in this thread to confirm that fact. Thank you. I'm sure your opinion matters more than what's already stated in the Bible. Now, if only we could get 129812679243 to repeat exactly the same thing. Oh wait, you already did. Now, what I don't agree with XiaXueYi: 1) No-one's passing judgment. I think assuming that every single one of them is using the vindictive finger-point like some drunken jury member isn't quite accurate or fair. They're just going by the simplest assumption that the OP's friend is having an affair with a married man (a logical progression from the word "dating", which has been poorly defined by our ever-helpful OP). They're just saying that having an extramarital affair is wrong, which isn't that judgmental in the first place, although a bit unnecessary. 2) "No number of prayers and chants will save your sorry souls" I think that's a little harsh. Condemning them to hell is a bit judgmental in itself. Anyway, I'm taking a neutral standpoint on this. I obviously don't condone adultery and the like, but the situation is so poorly described, I think it's fair that we open ourselves up to other possibilities. Either that, or the OP is one heck of a troll.
1 person likes this
@laydee (12798)
• Philippines
29 Dec 08
Taking a neutral standpoint is like not taking any standpoint at all. The discussions purpose was to try to gather up some ideas on what you would have done in that type of predicament. You cannot expect an author of a topic to put a very detailed description of her background and the background of the characters in the situation but merely the thought of 'dating/having a relationship with a married person', so condemning her because of how she phrased the topic isn't actually the whole point of the discussion, isn't it? Further, the failure to mention whether or not the 'married man' has divorce papers on hand should actually indicate that there isn't any. There mere fact that she mentioned 'married man' simply connotes the fact that he is still married with his wife. 2) The OP is giving her friend the silent treatment. Way to go. Now all you need is a bag of popcorn to enjoy the dramaz. Have fun. It's like a theater now, you can watch what's going on, but you sure aren't going to be able to change it. Great job. You should be a therapist or something. You know, in any circumstance, anyone not involved directly with such a relationship could only do so well as to advising someone or reminding them of the situation, you can't force someone to stop what they're doing, you could only give your stand. Now, if you were in that situation and someone doesn't really listen regardless how passionately you'd tell them what they're doing is wrong, what would you do?
1 person likes this
• Singapore
30 Dec 08
"the failure to mention the divorce papers in hand actually indicates that there isn't any"The whole point of the post was to get people to open their mind up to the fact that complications do exist in such situations, and it's unfair to immediately condemn the actions of the couple in question. Unfortunately, you're still seeing things in the exact manner as they have been described. "Because it hasn't been described in the original sentence, it doesn't exist". Fallacious, no? Anyway, let's just assume I'm wrong on this, and that this line of argument is absolutely correct. Then, we'll take a look at your statement: "Now, if you were in that situation, and someone doesn't really listen regardless of how passionately you'd tell them what they're doing is wrong". Did the OP mention any action on her part to remedy the situation? From the original sentence, the answer is quite obviously a negative. She just stood back, and washed her hands of the situation. Remember, what hasn't been described in the original sentence doesn't exist. Either way, your reply has a couple of logical holes. But I will concede that I should open my mind to the possibility that the OP has tried as hard as she can to remedy the situation, albeit in vain, leading to the current predicament. Not acknowledging this point would be hypocrisy, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. Cheers!
• United States
28 Dec 08
My step mother split up my parents, she then convinced my spouse to betray me it was a dual attack on me by both my mother and my step mother working behind the scenes. My spouse moved out of our house, we were together for a time in her house provided for her by her employer. Then my wife was once again deceptive and I had to leave, I've been out of that relationship for over a year, nearly a year and a quarter. This is a new year and after the past six nearly seven years of turmoil I'm looking to start new and fresh. I will put an end to that bad marriage and move forward with my life, does that make me a sinner? Or does that make me a human looking for love and understanding? What was lacking in my marriage? Should we all suffer in bad relationships when one partner decides to be evil? After all if the Church really cared they would have known that the truth was more important and exposing the truth would be more important than covering up any lies or false accusations. Then maybe my life would not be so messed up now would it? As soon as you make excuses for liars, you tend to judge the wrong people for sins that they never committed. If men and women love and respect each other they will have the trust to know that they are not available for other people and will not be seeking companionship in the arms of another. I think that is pretty basic, there are many other dynamics, mental dysfunction and abusive partners all of that, but basically, I think most of the problems is a lack of Love, and Respect... What does Love and Respect look like? You will know when you seek it because when you find Love and Respect you will not want to be very far from that Love and Respect that you have found.
1 person likes this
@Ithink (9980)
• United States
29 Dec 08
I feel the same way as you do. I do not understand woman that do, if you want to date, date someone single. Do not become the other woman and screw up another ladies life.
1 person likes this
@braided (698)
• Canada
30 Dec 08
I dont think it is right to judge anyone ... everyone has the right to do whatever they have to do to find out who they are in the universe ... God gives us choice and allows us that without judgement .... it seems you have made a choice ... the choice to judge and not be friends with your friend ... and if you can live with that .. thats kool ... peace to you ... but how do you feel? i bet you feel uneasy about your choice ....
1 person likes this
@mentalward (14691)
• United States
29 Dec 08
I think the first thing I'd do is ask my friend if she had thought about the wife of the person they're seeing. What would be the reaction of the cheated-on wife if she found out about this affair? What is the marriage like? Are they going through a divorce? Do they have an open marriage? I was a cheated-on spouse and it nearly killed me to find out my husband had been cheating. As far as I knew, we had an excellent marriage. He loved me, or appeared to. I did all I could to be a good wife and friend to him. It tore my world apart to find out about my husband's catting around. I got so sick from depression I lost weight and went down to 80 pounds! If I had a friend like yours, and she had no feelings at all about the wife left at home, she would not be my friend any longer. I could not have a friend who did not have any conscience and was only thinking of herself because I would never do such a thing to another woman!
@mentalward (14691)
• United States
29 Dec 08
Sorry, I have to add this, although it's a very mean thing to say: I hope your friend falls in love and gets married herself some day and finds out her husband is cheating on her. Maybe it will make her seek forgiveness for hurting her married lover's wife and possibly their children and entire family. Karma does have a way of showing up eventually.
@mentalward (14691)
• United States
29 Dec 08
"You made a pretty good number of assumptions about me." You did that yourself to the poster of this discussion when you mentioned religion and those horrible names you mentioned. I did not see anything about religion or name-calling in the discussion. You attacked her as if she had claimed to be a saint, which she did not. All she said was, and if you'll re-read her discussion, that it was her opinion that an illicit affair is wrong and that she could no longer have this gal as her friend. That is her choice, is it not? It was her friend's choice to do something illegal and potentially very hurtful and you seem to be condoning that, yet you jumped all over this poor gal who only expressed her opinion of it and asked for ours. Our opinions don't mean jumping down her throat! You feel one way and that's fine. But you've condemned this gal for posting HER opinion and that's wrong.
• Singapore
29 Dec 08
You made a pretty good number of assumptions about me. Thank you. Why must I be judgmental to point out whoever is? I just play the whistleblower - don't tell me the whistleblower in a company must be tried in court for pointing out foul play with the company's assets? And no, I don't see why I must even be married or be in a relationship to be able to form a point of view on this. Just because I clash with your ideals/beliefs and (unknowingly) cause you to relive your pain does not give you anymore rights to force me to relive mine - and which are unrelated to this discussion because I'm unattached, never had a relationship, and am under 20. Maybe I *might* take a different opinion some fine day if my wife decides to go renegade on me - but until then, I will stand by my ground on giving the "cheaters" and the "people involved in adultery" second chances. And please do not assume that just because I take the PoV, I will take part in such activities myself. A discussion is a discussion, and a person can take either sides of a fence, or sit on it. Cheers, and I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you then. However, if you cannot see the fact that I'm merely trying to divert the discussion from a purely religious PoV into a more real-life inclined one, and/or gets personal with what I said, then please, ignore what I said. I will not however, make my controversial views any more easier for other people to accept - that would be going against my principles.
1 person likes this
@relundad (2310)
• United States
28 Dec 08
I don't agree with someone dating a married person, however I doubt that I would end the friendship as a result of. I wouldn't go on a doube date or anything but my friendships are not limited to any one thing that could break it up. There are many things that my friends do or say that I don't agree with. And probally the same for them. Based on your post, I am wondering what if the person was a member of your family? Would you cut that person off because they did something that you didn't agree with? Just seems a bit fickled that you will only associate yourself with people if they will only do what you feel is deemed as right.
1 person likes this
• United States
28 Dec 08
As I said, if you read correctly, it is not a friend, but an aquantance. Someone I see every so often and have chatted with. I see no reason to chat with them any longer since I know I do not agree with their personal choices in life.
@relundad (2310)
• United States
29 Dec 08
Obviously that is your choice to make. It just seems that if its only an associate even more reason for you not to judge so harsely since it doesn't effect your life. But again its your choice. For me, who am I to judge?
@apples99 (6556)
• United States
28 Dec 08
Well if my friend asked for my opinion about it, I would tell her as honestly as I could but if she dosent ask me for my opinion I would just stay out of it, because sometimes a friend may get offended by the fact that you dont approve and take your advice the wrong way, as for me I feel the same as you when it comes to dating a married man thats defintly a no no for me, but I realize that not everyone feels the same when it comes to respecting other peoples marriage I just was raised different I just couldn't do that to a couple it just would feel wrong to me to date someone who's married or in a relationship.
1 person likes this
@GAUCI123 (1042)
• Malta
28 Dec 08
Well I will try to talk to her, and convince her that a relationship with some one who is married is without any future. It is sure that she will suffer for sure. Well I will try to convince her, if she will not listen, I will tell her that is her responsability to face its concecuences and sure I will not confort her if somethings happen.
1 person likes this
• United States
29 Dec 08
No. If I found out they were married I would break it off. I would feel bad for the wife. It's wrong to be commiting adultery with the guy.
1 person likes this
@healer (1779)
• India
28 Dec 08
I think its very wrong to do that, the bond of a family is very important and its going to be broken if they finds it out and its the fact that they will find it out. She should try to analyze the situation of the family she will be putting through. Women should be very careful in relationships and try to respect the family of whom you are dating as you becomes a devil to them and just imagine the pain you will be putting on the family members. Men usually are unpredictable and who knows he might be using her also. I really don't agree to the point in dating a married man.
• United States
28 Dec 08
You certainly have to consider how to heal the wounded soul, the bird with the broken wing. If you cherish companionship and find you have none would you find it wrong to seek what is missing? Suppose the marriage was turned into a big mistake? It can and has happened, just ask me and I'll be glad to explain.
• United States
28 Dec 08
Good point,Buffalo!
@Latrivia (2878)
• United States
28 Dec 08
My first question would be, is the spouse okay with it? It really doesn't matter what you think about the situation if the spouse is okay with the dating. Some relationships are open like that. If not, then it's not your friend's fault, really. She may not be helping matters, but if it's not her, the man would just go for someone else. The man knows he's married, he's the one at fault for it.
• United States
28 Dec 08
I was about to say that,some people like diversity and would allow anything to their partner.
• United States
29 Dec 08
See that is what I was asking about, are the two people hiding their relationship? So by keeping quiet they must be in a situation much different than the way the post is worded. There are all stages of being married or in the midst of a breakup leading to divorce. So I took a personal interest in answering your question on the topic from an angle that I am familiar with, kind of opening the conversation up and here you say you didn't want an in depth conversation. Oh' forgive me I'm sorry for running off providing an other side of the coin scenario. But this is life and life can be complicated from time to time you will find people in situations that should have never occurred. The thing is do you make life harder on the exceptions to your rules or do you find some compassion and figure a way of helping people in bad situations? I would say that your acquaintance needs you to keep an open mind and for your part there might come a time when you can set the two people that need to be together into the right direction to finding the love that they seek and deserve. Now don't you think I mean the husband and wife should be back together? Especially if the husband and acquaintance have not yet gotten too serious, there could still have been time to say the right thing to the right person so that a mistake would not be made. The other thing as I asked before is what is the condition of the married couple and their relationship with each other? To my knowledge this has not yet been disclosed. Is his wife having an affair also? Who knows what issues lurk under the surface?
• United States
28 Dec 08
I know very little about the situation because I did not want to get into an in depth conversation because I probably would have said something rude. The only thing I know is that they're trying to keep their relationship quiet, so my guess is the wife does not know, and that is the worst part in my opinion.
@orevro (715)
• Philippines
30 Dec 08
i know of someone who has the same situation as this discussion. We were all quite surprised .. if you look at the lady(single), you wouldn't say that she's the type of girl to have an affair with as you say someone married. I'm also against this type of relationship, it's what my friends call a "housewrecker". A lot of people get hurt even if they are not the principal subjects in the relationship.. Family, relatives, co-workers and friends are all involved
• United States
1 Jan 09
I have just the opposite situation, my wife allied with "the house wrecker" of my father my step mother turned my wife into "a house wrecker". So now I'm trying to move on with my house wrecked life. If I fall in love am I cheating because I haven't completed the divorce proceedings with "the house wrecker"? It is and it is not the same situation just in reverse. Maybe there are too many people looking at this from the wrong perspective?
@laydee (12798)
• Philippines
29 Dec 08
It's actually how you feel so confident being with the person, talking about anything knowing that nothing could come between the two of you because he's married. Sooner or later, you realize you're stuck with something that's not truly right and is actually against your principles. I know how it feels because I was in that situation a few years back. Well, it didn't really last long, and there wasn't any family broken either (thank goodness!). Anyhow, I still don't think it's right, and there's no such thing as 'because I love him/her', it all boils down to one thing BEING SELFISH. You had a choice to stop. You know it's wrong. You know perfectly that people would get hurt. You were never forced into it. You had the chance to get out. You knew that going through it all wasn't worth it. The wrong thing about what I did was the fact that nobody knew about it. I never consulted a friend because I was mature enough to know that it was wrong, but too immature to stop my foolishness. Nobody knew, but if there was someone who knew, I would have been happier if they tried their best to stop me. Of course, we all know that the efforts are futile because it all boils down to one thing it was my decision to be in it, it was my choice to leave it. But I sure wanted someone to snap me back to reality. Anyhow, I did actually end it, and I'm glad. I'm sure the guy would still attempt to find someone foolish enough, and I'm sure he'd find one. But I'm glad I had left and ended it without tarnishing a family. If I were a friend who knew about something like that, I would have done my best to stop it. I did actually, though the person didn't listen, I actually told her about my experience and that nothing good would ever come from stealing someone from their family and causing a good family to be broken apart. But well, at least I told her, and she would realize someday that I was right. I did stop communicating with the person too. Well, she stopped talking to me. But it's better that I don't talk to her anymore than to feel annoyed at how foolish she's wasting her life by starting a relationship with the wrong person.
@laydee (12798)
• Philippines
29 Dec 08
So true...
• Singapore
29 Dec 08
It's like trying to park in a lot that's already taken. Something's bound to be crushed.
1 person likes this
@AnakSuNamun (2084)
• United States
28 Dec 08
I rarely impose myself on other people's personal lives so I might be OK with it. It all depends on what kind of marriage that person is in-if it's on the verge of divorce or they don't care about each other,why not? But if that person is lying to his family and has a bunch of kids and a loving wife/husband I would be opposed to it. Of course,things happen and most people don't plan on dating married people but there is a certain type of folks who enjoy the lack of responsibility and the whole hype about forbidden fruit. No obligations,no promises and you're almost always better than the life partner.
• United States
29 Dec 08
Excellent point AnakSuNamun, What you have said is very true if your spouse stops loving you and you are a loving soul then the only thing that you can do is find another loving soul to partner up with. It is not cheating if you are already separated and no amount of counseling will make another person return to being a loving individual when the bond of trust is so broken there is no way to make a relationship work not one that has failed so many times as the one I was in, I knew for a long time that it would not work not that I didn't want it to work it was my observations of the other member of the team not putting in an effort to make our relationship work. In my example I was the one hand clapping in the wind, I did not connect with the hand of my partner because she withdrew her hand. I can't make her love me and share with me, and I am not the type of person that would like to live a lonely solitary life. I also hate the idea of divorce but the commitment vows were broken when the betrayal took place. I'm glad some people are willing to look with open hearts and minds. :) Thank you, Sincerely, Gary
• United States
28 Dec 08
I don't think the type of marriage should matter when it comes to cheating. I personally don't believe in divorce either, so that changes things. I think if a marriage is going sour, you should get help to put the pieces back together instead of looking for another person to fill the void. But even if you are heading for divorce, that's no reason to cheat. You made a legal and spiritual vow to love only that one person. You must honor that vow.
• United States
28 Dec 08
That's a great principle but it's not always easy to follow. What if you just "lost that loving feeling",and not only for your partner but for any other person? You get bitter and disappointed,how can you relight what has burned out? I personally believe that love cannot be forced,it grows on its own but that doesn't have anything to do with cheating....
@shebeck (114)
• Jamaica
29 Dec 08
You are right not to condone such a lifestyle. Marriage is scared, holy and blessed by God and one of his commandment is that thou shall not commit adultry. The person who is involved with this person that is married is guilty of fornication and will be reprimanded by God for intervening into a relationship that is scared, holy and blessed by him, she is also committing fornication. Your aquaintance should desist from going further with the relationship, if he/she don't sooner or later the innocent party will find out and this can lead to destroying the marriage. Whan a man and a woman is married, they are joined together as one, not two persons, so it is not right for anyone to go in between and if it is the person who is married encouraged the outside relationship he/she is guilty of breaking God's Commandment of committing adultry and the Bible said that if you break one of the Commandment you are guilty of breaking all of it.
• Singapore
29 Dec 08
This is not bible school if I may boldly say so - this is a real-life situation. Not to mention that the OP hasn't gotten it crystal-clear whether they are merely dating or whether they are sexually involved. Please, for the love of God, do not use the Word of God in a way that makes you look like a prophet-wannabe - it's meant for healing and good advice, not for elevating you to a position you were never meant to be at. Exalt yourself, and God shall humble you; humble yourself, and God will exalt you.
1 person likes this
@shebeck (114)
• Jamaica
29 Dec 08
Mister, I am not taking any glory for myself, when I speak about God's goodness and his word, I am doing this to give the Glory to God. I will speak about God as I see it fit. Who gives you the right to tell people what to say. This medium is for people to share honest discussions, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, that is their freedom you cannot take that away. Your comments are really immature, grow up and open your mind to reality. God is in everything whether you like it or not.