(Question for believers) - If you're one of the people who says ...
By Ciniful
@Ciniful (1587)
Canada
January 17, 2007 10:31pm CST
There's a type of religious who defends biblical defense by saying that the old testament no longer applies. For instance, when preaching that God preaches love, and a non believer jumps up to point out all of the quotes in Leviticus, Chronicles and whatnot, where God commanded that non believers be killed, unruly children be stoned to death, and rape victims be murdered for not screaming loud enough .... there is a certain type that will shrug those off saying "Oh, those are old testament, they don't count anymore, not since Jesus came."
For those people, I have 3 questions. These are asked out of complete curiousity. I'm trying to understand the mindset that justifies this contradiction in rational thought.
1. In Deuteronomy 12:032, God commands you to follow his laws to the word, never to diminish from it. He didn't add a disclaimer saying "until I say so", it was simple and straightforward ... do not diminish it. So how do you justify picking and choosing what to follow and what to dismiss?
2. Jesus said on at least 2 occasions that he had not come to change the laws, but to enforce them. (Matthew 5:18-19, Matthew 5:17)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill."
So again, my question is, who decided which laws to ignore and which to uphold, while Jesus commanded the old laws be followed?
3. Last question. Do you support creationism being taught in schools, or do you support the theory of creationsim? This is the contradiction I have the biggest problem figuring out ... this is old testament. If we're going to discard old testament as metaphor and out of date, should not this have been included?
2 people like this
5 responses
@misskatonic (3723)
• United States
18 Jan 07
God made a pact with Adam in the garden and promised that the 'old laws would be done away with' when his son was born. That's where I take it from. The laws Jesus said he wasn't here to abolish referred to the Ten Commandments, not the rules in Leviticus.
The thing with the Bible is that it's been translated so many times that a lot of the meaning has been paraphrased. It gets bogged down in issues like not having direct translations - there are no English words for a lot of Koine words - and being full of slang and vernacular.
I don't support creationalism being taught in schools. Or at all. Yes, God made the world, I believe hat. But not in seven days and he didn't make Adam and Eve fully formed in the Garden. I beleive in Evolution, and that God set it all in motion.
1 person likes this
@Ciniful (1587)
• Canada
18 Jan 07
Not to come across as condescending in the least, but could you point out a verse that discusses this pact between God and Adam? Because I can't seem to find anything of the kind. The first pact or convenant in the bible is between God and Abraham, but there is no pact between God and Adam.
There is no finite answer to which laws Jesus was referring to. He made a generalized remark concerning Gods laws, and laws governed by God extended well beyond the commandments.
I'm aware of the translations .. my questions stem from the original King James version, derived from the latin works. The content of the 3 verses I reference are intact.
I'm glad to see you don't support creationism however, it's a nice change of pace to see a believer side with science .. at least to a degree.
1 person likes this
@misskatonic (3723)
• United States
8 Feb 07
I don't have a Bible on hand, but it's the Covenant of Grace. When Adam breaks the Covenant of Works with God by eating of the forbidden fruit, God makes another pact with him. That a new age will come with Christ, and new laws for those who accept him, and everything that came before would be rebuilt.
The Covenant of Grace *is* disputed among Covenant Theologists - whether it's a true Covenant or just a prophecy that has no effect on Biblical law. The Covenants are not may main branch of study, so I can't personally argue to whether the Covenant of Grace should be standard dogma or not. I believe in it, in a sense, and that it wasn't just a prophecy of Christ's coming.
The problem with the King James version - and pretty much all versions of the Bible after the Koine version - is that a lot of the words were slang terms and had no actual translations. So translators did what they could and ended up leaving things out simply because they weren't able to properly translate it. Which a lot of people try and twist and claim that it was intentionally mistranslated.
Anyway... yeah. I don't understand why so many Christians deny science. Science is real. Science is not some trick of Satan or whatever they claim. And if we believe that God created everything, I don't see why they can't accept that science is all part of the world that God laid the groundwork for.
1 person likes this
@zeloguy (4911)
• United States
8 Feb 07
There is no 'covenant' with Adam in the Bible. There is one with Moses and one with Abraham.
What you speak of is Jesus' quoting of Hosea 6:7
Hosea 6:7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Which can be found in
Matthew 9:13
and
Matthew 12:7
@2timothy (794)
• Philippines
29 Nov 07
Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances (Eph. 2:15a)
Wiping out the handwriting in ordinances (of the ceremonial law with its rituals), ...nailing it to the cross (Col. 2:14)
Christ came to abolish not the law of the moral commandments but the law of the ritual commandments. Jesus Himself broke the ritual commandments of keeping the Sabbath. The moral commandments will never be abolished, but the ritual commandments are dispensational and thus temporary.
See also note 2 of Gal. 2:3 in online.recoveryversion.org
@2timothy (794)
• Philippines
3 Dec 07
The Jewish rituals and ordinances (Leviticus and Deuteronomy) of the Old Testament dispensation are not for Christians of the New Testament dispensation but the moral commandments of the Old Testament are unchanged but even uplifted in the New Testament (Matt.5). Christians of course should receive the entire Bible with the Old Testament as shadows and types of the New Testament as fulfillment and reality.
Hebrews 9-10 shows us that since Christ has come and offered Himself as the better sacrifice, we no longer need to offer bulls and goats sacrifices anymore which are shadows of Christ as reality or else we would be literally offering bulls and goats daily instead of applying Christ with His blood as our burnt and sin offering daily through our consecration and repentance. The same is true of all the other Old Testament ordinances. In saying this, we are not following the Bible selectively but instead taking the entire Bible in its proper perspective.
@Ciniful (1587)
• Canada
30 Nov 07
And creationism? The ten commandments? If the token response is that OT isn't accepted anymore (and it is the token response) then my issue is in trying to understand how creationism and the commandments, both found in the OT, can be cherry picked as acceptable, while discarding the rest?
@ondo1015 (1884)
• Philippines
13 Feb 07
When I am in High School my Uncle who used to be a Pastor in SDA told me to read the bible. I did read the whole of Old Testament but not the new testamient. In old testament are lots of Miracles without Jesus, only Moses and others. In new testaments it Is Jesus who are concentrated, and New Testaments are well used by pastors and Priests.
@jimfabo (327)
• India
12 Feb 07
I don't know much about God command but well i beleive We are the one who decide and justify which law to ignore and which one to uphold.
All these law and rule also called command made by God
are just to make people life easier... you will follow those command and so that we can stay in a boundry.. Ten commands which are written in bible is good and its help us to live life peacefully and happily...
Different society, and country have their own law.. its depend in society and people nature..
If you think more openly than their are so many people out there who believe in different God and their diffrent command.. we can not say that who is right and who is wrong?
So i think its you who choose what to believe who to believe and which command to follow.
I personaly believe in my heart... if I think something is good than i will go ahead with that even if certain law or command says not to.
