How can a religion be viewed as accurate if they are open to interpretation?

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That is exactly my point. EVERYTHING is subjective. You are treating it like religion is the only thing that is open to interpretation, so therefore it is not worthy of being believed. That is simply not true. There is disagreement and different interpretations of data in scientific communities, but that does not keep from believing some "facts" and disbelieving others.

Just because there is a corruption of truth does not mean that the truth does not exist. It just means that some people don't SEE it. God made people with free will and with brains that belong completely to us. He does not force any thoughts in our brains. He gave us as much as was needed to reveal himself to us, and those things that we don't completely understand are not evidence of something being wrong. They don't disprove God.

Let me give you an example. What killed the dinosaurs? This is a scientific question, and the answer is open to interpretation. Some people believe a big meteor. Some people believe it was a climate change. There are tons of theories, none of them 100% provable. So, because things are interpreted differently by different people, does that mean that probably the dinosaurs never existed, because if they did exist then it would be obvious what happened to them? Of course not. That's an absurd thing to say. It is just as absurd to say that because some things about religion are not obvious that religion is all lies.

I personally do not pretend to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I have disagreements with fellow Christians and with non-Christians about religion all the time, but what it comes down to in the end is that there is enough there that is clear to me that I am able to believe. The fact that someone else has a different interpretation than me does not have to shake either of our faiths, because the basic principles are still there.

there are many things in bible and other chirtian scripts that are contradicting each orther. In one it would say that god made chickens as food for people while the other one says that anything other then plants, milk and honey is from the devil and it's sinful to eat it. I think that in order to find the whole truth about god you have to study not only bible but also other religions and religios scripts that were baned from the bible. bible was written by people who were benefiting from people's believes so many things in the bible might not be true, therefore people shouldn't blindly belive in everything in the bible, but instead think for themselves and try to find the truth from many different sources.

Everything is subjective, sure; however some things are inadvertently more objective then others, no matter how we desire to perceive them. This is kind of where things interact with logic and science. Sure, these things are a matter of perception and to a degree subjective perspective; but some things are undeniable (for any logical being).

That becomes the new problem. Some people like to view their "god" as above logic, and therefore unprovable. This is where religion takes a turn for the worst. Insisting that "faith" is all that is needed to BELIEVE (which by any rational persons standards would imply being able to see, experience, and share the experiences with others with the back up of scientific evidence and studies).

The discussion on whether or not god gives people free will is beyond the realm of this discussion. If you'd like to discuss it I'd be happy too in another discussion. Also, the question of whether truth exists; or if there is only "one" truth is also another issue to be raised. You imply that you are aware that there may be a truth, and that god may be a piece of this. I am not against your feeling that way, however I would like to know what evidence you view for coming to this conclusion.

As far as I am concerned, I don't really believe in a "right" or "wrong" answer to anything. Some things just make more sense to me. Perhaps something makes more sense to you. That is the ultimate issue here, at least for me; when I look at my own life and beliefs like mine (and not like mine).

What killed the dinosaurs? I am not sure. Not all science can "prove" things. Science is built on a lot of theories, however scientific theories vary differently in comparison to a regular person's "theory" in that is is backed up by the scientific method (usually). Observation, experimentation, research, etc. I can't tell you with 100% certainty that a meteor killed them or that climate change took them. There is always uncertainty.

As far as I am concerned, the problem is escalated in a significant way when you take it out of the realm of "dinosaurs" to the realm of religion. Whether or not dinosaurs exist, and what killed them off (if anything) is something I do not care significantly about for several reasons:

1. I wasn't there. I can't possibly know 100%

2. If religion is accurate, it doesn't tell me why either. Perhaps science can't prove these things, but neither can religion.

3. Dinosaurs are relatively unimportant because my belief in them/their demise is not said to alter my afterlife. This is my primary reason for bothering to discuss different believes. I would like to know, without a shadow of a doubt; as much as I know another human next to me exists, that this omnipotent god exists (or does not). I am an atheist primarily due to the lack of "real" evidence to prove the existance of such a being. One could say, "but look at the world around you! God made all of this!" I say in return, "Look at all the houses that were built around you! Some of them monumental! You can actually be sure there were people working on them! You could hear them and see them, there names are in the newspaper."

There is a pretty significant difference, and I don't think it is unreasonable on my part to need evidence to throw my lot in with this being. I mean, people live and die for something that so many of us aren't even sure exists. And, unlike what some religious people would like to think; not all of us (including myself) are "against religion", I am just interested in what causes people to follow such a path based on faith alone. I've been through many churches in my day, that seems almost far fetched to me if I compare it to the lack of enthusiasm I saw in the pews when the pastor asked for some help running the church activities (such as simple tasks like Sunday school). What causes someone to be willing to live and die, go through mundane services for 60 years, and rest assured they will spend their eternity in heaven (in happiness); yet not be able to help inside the confines of the church or the community when they can very well see what is actually occurring in their neighborhood (in the case of mine, gangs, drugs, and such).

I pretty much agree with you in the end paragraph. We all live our own lives. If we are happy (or minimally content) with our lifestyles, than all the better.

The problem with your description in "faith in anything" is that it hardly requires faith to trust those people. Why? Because you at least see them and be fully aware that you know them, at least to some degree. Of course there is a measure of faith in anything; will my girlfriend continue to love me for the rest of our lives? That is a variable I do not know, however I minimally do know my girlfriend exists; and therefore I am willing to pursue a relationship with her.

God is not like that. I can not distinguish "god" from my own brain. If I could, minimally, know that god exists; then I could move forward in such a way as I do in my relationship with my girlfriend. I like to say to my girlfriend: "At least I know you exist." Its the unfortunate truth. And by know, I mean with 100% certainty.

I personally would say the Bible is more fictional, or at most a fiction "inspired by truth" like so many movies and books today. It only makes sense.

The unfortunate part about the "good" aspects of religions is when you consider how so many of these religious people act. One could look at a rapist and say "he is a good guy" based on seeing him at one point help an old lady across the street. That still doesn't deny the fact that he is, in fact, a rapist.

But that is also some thing people can break free from. I don't imagine generations and generations of a family line will believe the same thing. People need to break free if they so desire. Just because culture says "God and religion come first" does not mean they have to. I am in the same situation.

Atheism can have qualities of a religion, but never be nearly the same. We don't have holy books giving us a guide, and leaders trying to get money out of us "in the name of god."

And of course, this doesn't prove anything. In any other life scenerio religious people need proof and evidence.

Inevitably, I am an ex-Christian. I have felt a lot. Particular fans being turned on high power during the closing of a church service (to invoke a feeling of the spirit for those who are unaware), a soft piano to cool your mind, little kids dancing before the lord, little voices in my head saying things will be okay.

Why did I change? Because I can not differentiate these experiences from an actual being. Those of us in relationships have a degree of faith, however we don't go into a relationship without knowing anything at all. Minimally, we at least know the person exists. That is a part of my problem. People claim they have this personal relationship with their god, yet we can not even have any proof this god exists.

Furthermore, how can one differentiate one god from the next? If you're a follower of Christianity, you will see the God of the Bible. If you follow Islam, you see Allah. There are so many deities and so many people insisting they have experienced said deity, that it makes things ridiculous.

This is why I do not like including faith in the discussing, because it is irrational and sadistic if the god exists at all. Why? Because believing or not believing is said to affect my afterlife. If I can't have the slightest hint of proof that god exists, but he really does; and I go to some form of damnation, is that really my fault?

It is arguments like yours that make religious people impossible to talk to, because their belief is in a different realm. It puts aside all logic and sensibility, that these same people need in any other aspect of their life. They cling to an invisible being, that apparently everyone has experienced; but no one has yet proven. Isn't that ridiculous as far as religion is concerned? Over the past 2000 years people have died and lived for this being, but still so many of us have to question its existence? If it was worth living for, wouldn't it be right for us to at least be able to be certain it exists?

Lastly, I am not looking for a "perfect answer." Mostly, just for the knowledge of whether or not such a being exists.

You either get it or you don't is quite the argument as well. Have you ever read Plato's Allegory of the Cave? The "enlightened" think they're enlightened, yet have no way to prove that their enlightenment is any better than a person who enjoys being a slave and watching shadows dance.

It puts aside all logic and sensibility, that these same people need in any other aspect of their life. They cling to an invisible being, that apparently everyone has experienced; but no one has yet proven. Isn't that ridiculous as far as religion is concerned?

No it isn't. The fact that you have to have cold hard facts for your understanding tells me that you will never understand until you have an epiphany.....my epiphany came when I saved my daughter. It wasn't something that should have happened and it's not up for discussion so I will not give particulars. I just know in my heart of hearts that He is there for me.
I am sorry that you don't see what I see but it's your choice. I don't judge you. You have to make choices for yourself in your life and I wish you well.

And one more thing.....why do I have to prove anything? It's my choice isn't it? Just as it is yours to have to have physical proof of something that you can't touch or smell or see....you need to look up the word faith...this is the essence of religion.
As far as whether God or Buddha or whatever is a person's God of choice....does that matter either? Maybe they are all the same...maybe not.
It's whether people are happy with their choice. And it's whether they do good works with this choice and don't harm others or do things that are not kind and considerate.
I have found one true common denominator in all of the great religions.
This is kindness toward others. If we treat everyone with the values of the golden rule we are doing well.

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha

For the record, I am not judging you. Questioning your reason and judging are two different things. You just come into my discussion, where in the original post I said to come at it without a idea of "faith." Some of us need some logic.

I can understand your scenario regarding your saving your daughter. It is a similar scenerio that began my denial of god a few years ago when my younger sister died in a freak accident. After it occurred, all of my church friends and families showed up to tell us that she was "in heaven" and that God was watching out for her. For the time, I believed it. Now I am 18 and left to ponder that incident? How can a loving being who is "watching out" take a 4 year old in such a freak way.

This situation continued as I went through 3-4 churches to not find any real acceptance. From deaths of friends and family members, to the most recent death just a few months ago where I stood by the death bed of an individual I loved very dearly dying of cancer.

You say it is faith you need to believe in god, but it is that same faith that causes me to deny him.

Additionally, you don't HAVE to prove anything. It was the implication that since you were bothering to respond to my discussion that you were going to abide by the guidelines I set out with for it. I am not here to be an irrational and illogical. Being an ex-Christian of many years and having gone through addiction and death I feel it is not unreasonable to ask for proper evidence from this all-powerful god to simply KNOW he exists.

Ultimately, of course it doesn't matter to me what you believe; however I would expect that if you believe in something you would have more of a reason than "I felt god was watching over me." Who is to say that wasn't just you acting out of your human nature and saving your daughter? In any other scenario you would probably need more significant evidence. For me I compare god to my girlfriend. Sure, I have some degree of faith my girlfriend wont cheat on me; however I know she exists and I know who she is through actually being with her and learning to love her. We can't know everything, but we should able to (minimally) know that something exists; without a shadow of a doubt.

What is wrong about the golden rule as far as I am concerned is the simple fact that so many beliefs and religions say it: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." From there, you can proceed to see these same people stabbing others in the back. The interest in a loving god loses its charm when you see acts of unkindness and borderline cruelty.

Note this isn't an attack on you or anything, just a discussion. I find faith to be an irrational ground for a person to stand on when it comes to believing in something. Faith just seems like an excuse to me for people to act out in whatever way they feel necessary. Terrorists are said to have faith in Allah due to their "reward." Is this faith acceptable, then? If they are to inherit the kingdom of heaven? Sure, not every one is going to kill people for their faith; but too many will die believing in something they can't fully be sure of.

So your premise is because your sister died that you can't believe....I can see that would cause one pause....It's a devastating thing to lose someone you love. I've lost many people in my life; from my mother when I was nine to my dad of alcoholism when I was seventeen, to my grandfather when I was nineteen. I've buried a nephew, many many friends and others too numerous to mention. It takes faith to understand that God does not do this. It takes faith for me to believe that they are with Him. I can't explain it. It just happens that this is what I believe.
Did I ever question my faith? Absolutely! I don't believe anyone that has had a relationship with God could say in good conscience otherwise. I think that you are on a quest or you would not have asked this question of the faithful.
I hope you find peace in your life and that you do find God; or not ......you're choice; your life.

I really like your response, its very interesting to view things in that light. This is perhaps my biggest problem with religion in general, it is not really as clear cut as I would like. Does that make it wrong? Not necessarily, it just makes it hard to believe in.

ulalume, thanks for seeing my response in the proper light. I greatly appreciate that. I want to state that I am just a fellow traveller trying to understand our journey. I understand that not all things are clear. But can the light be turned on so that at least the big things are clear and if that can be done, is it important and does it really matter that every detail is not clear? I'm just asking the question so that we can think about it. Remember I'm also either in the same spot as you are or was there and am exploring another spot.

What do I mean?

Is there anything that we can all agree on or at least every true human can agree on?

Can we agree that killing is wrong under most circumstances (notice I did not say all)? You see if we can't agree on anything then we each have to make our own personal religion. But if that is the case we will never get anywhere and sooner or later we would destroy ourselves and the earth if no true God exists.

But if a true God exists would He not care and help those who really care about Him, mankind, and the planet?

I would be very interested to see what you would require of a true religion? Think about it and please enumerate a few things that you think would be important. I would be very interested to know your thoughts and feelings on what you would demand of a true religion?

The epitome of things I would require to follow a specific religion (that has a basis in a specific deity (or deities) would inevitably have to be the pure knowledge of this beings existance. By purity of my knowledge I also would like to include that this knowledge be logical and scientific (in that, it should be some thing we can all examine if we desire too).

I desire less faith and more knowing, which is inadvertently very contradictory to major religious beliefs. Examine Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (the "big 3"). What do their texts ask of their believers? Faith. Pure faith. Not this faith in someone else, which is relatively non-existent; because it does not require much faith if you see someone daily and know them well. If you go up a few posts you can read my examination of faith related to my personal life with my girlfriend.

Most humans can agree on a set of beliefs, but it is the gray areas that cause us the most strife. Why? Because one would expect a person who follows a higher power to be knowledgeable of what is acceptable/unacceptable in certain scenarios. The reason most people would agree on a basic set of beliefs, though, is primarily due to them being a part of our nature. Some would say our nature is good, others would say our nature is evil. I believe our human nature is neutral. We do as we need to survive. Murder is almost exclusively unnecessary in a regular day routine. No one wants to die, and in order to make sure that does not happen (abruptly) not many people desire to murder. If you murder, there is a chance you will die. It is against our nature. If we examine other animals in their natural habitats, we can see how killing fits into survival. Lions hunt for food to feed themselves and their families. Humans do the same thing. A majority of the time species don't feed on their own kind, as we want our species to survive. This is natural. Most of the time killing doesn't take place out of hatred, but out of the need.

Still, there are so many things not really clarified in a text like the Bible. Lust is wrong, but are all sexual fetishes? Are they wrong in the context of marriage? Is sex wrong before marriage if one considers the act of sex to be binding? Is it wrong to be gay? Or is it just wrong to have anal sex? Is it wrong for heterosexuals to have anal sex? If so, are all fetishes wrong? Is anal sex wrong in the context of marriage?

So many things are circular and never-ending to a degree. When examining sex it is almost like you have to examine every persons lifestyle, purpose for having sex, and "marriage." From there, it is still open to interpretation. I suppose the primary reason these questions need answering is the fact that if they are deemed sinful by "God", then how many people will be going to hell for not knowing?

Another big problem for me is that so many things are declared right and wrong by churches and pastors, however so much of it is based loosely on scripture that isn't definitive. It is hard for me to through all my stones into one box in the hope that it is right.

ulalume, thanks for responding! I wish I had some logical answer to contribute.

If God exists, then why doesn't He make things clearer? Why does He not shake the earth to get everyone's attention and then speak with a loud voice and tell us directly that He exists and what He wants us to do?

If He does exist then He wants us to look for evidence and not give us conclusive evidence. If He does exist then He is God and can do what He likes. I guess we can see what we like to see and choose what we like to choose. We do die, what happens then? Only time will tell!

I am a believer in God and happy to be one. I like this way of life. My life is better for it. It's my personal interpretation on life and the universe. That's all I can say today!

I wish you well!

The predicament remains the same. The evidence provided is hardly evidence at all. Minimally, it can be evidence of virtually whatever someone desires it to be. If I can't prove a god-like Creator, why should I attribute the universe and all in it to him? It just doesn't make sense. This is where I see what some call "evidence" and just can't, with 100% certainty, conclude that is is the evidence of "God."

My thoughts also remain the same. If God is real, then he should reveal himself so as to make all aware that he is real. If my life teeters on the balance of eternal damnation and eternal life, than I think it is only fair to have knowledge before hand.