Where is Sarah Palin when you need her?  

I love how they were romping. My boss showed it to me, and we came up with a story about the moose - like that was their mommy or daddy looking after them.

There is a love for life and family in every species, and not enough people want to be aware of that. It raises the guilt level when they let themselves become aware and appreciative of wildlife.

Palin is somewhat evil. I firmly believe that.

Are you both vegans? Or just hypocrites?

You do know that people hunt and eat moose in Alaska, don't you? It's not like there's a freakin' grocery store around every corner there.

Do you know how cute baby cows are? And then they end up as part of a Big Mac at MacDonalds. Or how about veal? Do you know where that comes from?

How is getting your meat from a slaughter house any better than hunting it in the wild?

Piasa - I am a vegan - its widely known on these boards.

Not only that, Alaska is much more civilized than you are trying to portray. They have a high median income, and supermarkets just like any other state.

Ladybug, have you ever been to Alaska? Do you know anyone from Alaska? Unless you're in Anchorage or Juneau, the vast majority of Alaska is open frontier. Paved roads don't lead to every city. Oil is transported to many parts of Alaska by dogsled, not by oil tankers. There really is not a single state in this country that's similar to the geography, climate, and density of Alaska.

have any of you been? i haven't either so i shall just use my handy 'scandinavia stereotype' (which also applies to canada, russia, the top bit of scotland and anywhere else cold). people in alaska live on seals and herring. and moose. they have to eat this because it is a 7 week trip by husky to a city and there are no vegetables.

I've been to Ketchikan, Anchorage, and Chugiak. I have several friends who live in Chugiak so we visited them when my wife and I took a cruise that went up the coast a few years ago. Just to give some comparisons, Ketchikan which would qualify as a little fishing village in most parts of the country, is considered a big city in Alaska with only 17,000 people. Chugiak is roughly the same size as Sarah Palin's hometown.

Your comparison isn't far off although people are more likely to ride mooseback to get to the city. That way if you're blocked by an avalanche you have something to eat while you wait for help to arrive by helicopter or plane.

On a more serious note the state was just alien to me in many ways. In Florida, and most of this country, you can almost always get from point A to point B by car and usually by a well travelled, and well paved road. In Alaska, there are many places where you either have to take a ferry, or a plane to reach as roads just don't lead everywhere and some are just unsafe due to natural conditions.

This is also a major issue with police response times. In most of this country, it can take 8 to 20 minutes for police to respond to a crime. In parts of Alaska it can literally take DAYS for police to respond to a crime. That's another reason why the second amendment and gun rights are so critical there. Unless you are in a big city like Anchorage or Juneau, you can't expect a rapid response by police when you call for help.

The UK, by comparison, is about 1/7 the size of Alaska and has 100 times as many people.

i always worry about what happens to those huskies when the sleigh breaks down. now you have me worried about riding moose. anyway i can imagine it is very different from the rest of the states. the north north bit of north american is somewhere i'd really like to visit. assuming you didn't just make those place names up what was it like, apart from the nuisance of having to hunt whales for supper every night?

Ok I am vegitarian, I have been for quite awhile now, but for gods sake why can't I appreciate that a moose is beautiful, all I said was that they were cute, and we expected something bad from Palin, this is why I do not do mylot as much anymore, you take a cute story and turn it into a very rude thing THAT IS TO PIASA....I am so sorry to everyone that I live in California and I find mooses cute, oh my god lets just all gasp. Cmon now, really?

this is what happens in the politics section aka the playground. don't get upset - it is actually hilarious. you have three choices - ignore it, respond politely, or best all all type poo synonyms back in angry capitals . i am planning to post a cute video of tiger cubs perhaps with a discussion about the cruelty of tiger farming in the states. i fully expect to be slammed for being a furrin hypocrite poking my nose in where it doesn't belong as pig farming is cruel as well and happens in my country. won't work as i'm a vegetarian too but doubt this will stop the kiddiewinks trying.

hi taskr. our teeth are designed pretty much to eat anything - we don't have either the teeth of carnivores or herbivores. we have all purpose teeth as do most omnivores and can be perfectly healthy on all kinds of diets. since we have the choice plenty of people decide to become vegetarian for ethical reasons, including me although i do not judge people who eat meat. what i do find annoying are meat eaters who say we are designed to be carnivores and vegetarians who say that we are not. both are wrong imo. now having probably annoyed both you and ladybug i shall bugger off.

"we don't have either the teeth of carnivores or herbivores"

Correction, we have both. I'm not saying we were designed to be carnivores. We were designed to be omnivores, but a carnivorous diet is part of that. We are adaptable enough to subsist on an incomplete diet, but you're still going against the natural design of our bodies.

Our teeth aren't the only indicator. Look at the human head and the location of our eyes. Our eyes are on the front of our heads. That is the design of a predator as it allows for greater depth perception when spotting prey. Herbivores typically have eyes located on the sides of their head for a better range of vision helping them to spot predators.

ok, that was not phrased well - we have a mixture. we don't have the teeth of either pure herbivores like cattle or pure carnivores like cats. eye position is a good point and this applies to grazing prey animals like deer - and the predators that hunt them like tigers. there are plenty of exceptions once you move away from these clear cut examples though - for example birds of prey (carnivores,side of head), orang utans (plant eaters, front of head) etc. we have things in common with both. we are not naturally designed either for meat to be essential - we are not cats, or for it to cause havoc to our bodies, we are not cows. ps in this case i do know what i am talking about since i am studying biology for a career change. we are lucky enough that we can choose what we eat and a complete balanced diet doesn't have to include meat. it won't make you ill if it does though.

Birds of prey do have eyes on the front of their heads. Compare the head of an eagle or hawk to that of a cockatiel or pheasant and you'll see a significant difference in the location of their eyes. Cockatiels always turn their heads sideways to look at people. A hawk, eagle, or other bird of prey looks straight at you with both eyes. Trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about with birds. I have 8 of them and have spent plenty of time working with various birds including volunteering at an avian sanctuary in Florida. Orangutans are omnivorous as they eat insects and bird eggs in addition to fruits. Many zoos just find it cheaper to keep them on a vegetarian diet.

http://homepage.mac.com/w...
http://www.searcharticles...

You're absolutely right that we are not like cows or cats. We were designed with the ability to eat and digest a LOT. Personally, I feel sick if I don't get an appropriate amount of meat in my diet, but I had one friend who was a vegetarian based solely on the fact that he felt sick when he ate meat. My point was simply that based on our biology, we were designed to eat meat just as we were also designed to eat vegetables. I see calling someone evil for hunting and eating meat to be just as dumb as calling someone evil for killing and eating vegetables.

Taskr - You know that I am aware of studies done on plants and their communication with one another, as you directly responded to a discussion where I mentioned that.

This is another one of your feeble attempts to discredit me in front of new viewers.

This is quoting myself from the other thread that you responded to:

"I am of the principle that I want to minimize suffering in this world.

The argument has been made that a carrot or a tomato is alive and lets out tiny microscopic screams when you pluck them, but they are so high pitched, human is unable to hear them. Polygraph tests have proven that plants do respond to stress. And, branches of trees communicate with one another to warn of predators.
The testing showed that plants do respond to stress, but mostly to intentional destruction, as in this study, it was smashed or set on fire. When pulling leaves, it hardly reacted. The pain and fear associated with vegetable farming may be insignificant.

While I have to nurture myself to stay alive while I research what breatharians are, I will eat only vegetables, herbs, nuts, etc. It takes fewer plants to feed people than it takes to feed livestock, which is then served as food. So, this is the most compassionate choice I can make, in order to minimize suffering."

That said, I have heard the "overpopulation" and "top of the food chain" arguments already, both fairly sorry excuses to justify being barbaric.

Animals eat humans all the time, in coyote attacks, mountain lion attacks, shark attacks, etc. Just because we have learned how to wear camoflauge (not natural at our birth), and learned how to fancy a weapon (not natural at birth), and fly in the sky (not natural birth), and then kill an unsuspecting animal in THEIR natural habitat, does not make us the top of anything.

When you do kill your wolf, or moose, or deer for supper, why do you cook it? That is not something that occurs with predator animals in nature. Human is the only species that cooks meat.

I don't agree with jb that we are omnivores and that may be impacted by my ethical choices, but I have also researched that we hardly have teeth similar to a predator animal. Our jaws don't snap shut, they grind side to side like an herbivore. We have those great incisors to bite into fleshy fruits like an apple, but we don't have the claws to immobilize a zebra, and sink our teeny tiny incisors into them and tear away at their flesh.

The eye placement is a moot point because both herbivores and carnivores have differences within their own species.

While cows have four stomachs, they do have one that is very similar to that of our own digestive track, and we lack the stomach acidity to properly digest meat, which is why it rots in our colons.

Why don't humans claim a section of ocean and set up camp there? I know they have underwater hotels, but I mean, the actual ocean, without any building with oxygen generators. Because it is not our natural habitat. But, marine life obviously out-populates us, which is why we need to get down there, fight our way to the top of the food chain, and regulate their population. But we can't live in salt water.

Moose and deer often live in places similar to where we live. We can't just do clear cuts, set up a housing development and assume that killing them all is the morally responsible decision. Prior to plundering their living grounds, we should build them a sanctuary elsewhere. Where do you expect them to live, and why do you think they are not entitled to?

I have said it before, and will say it again: HUMANS AREN'T THE ONLY SPECIES ON EARTH. WE JUST ACT LIKE IT.

I think Sarah Palin is evil for several reasons, this being one of them.

taskr did the we are designed to eat meat, you're now doing the we are designed not to - as i said i don't think either of these arguments is the complete truth. or necessary when you are talking about an ethical choice. a diet can be nutritionially fine with or without meat.

to try and move things off a debate that could go on for ever, with only me being right. as usual i agree that animals should be treated with respect ladybug, and taskr i'd really like to know what birds you have? some birds are fascinating.

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Do the cockatiels talk? I head they can speak? Like parrots.

* heard. Not head.

very sweet, and funny, tweet romance there.

Cockatiels are members of the parrot family so yes, they can speak, but they have a much more limited vocabulary than an African Grey or other large parrots. Their specialty is more whistling than talking. We have two male and two female cockatiels. The males talk and whistle all the time. Female cockatiels almost never speak (we were told 1 in 1000), but one of ours does. She says "Step up"

"That said, I have heard the "overpopulation" and "top of the food chain" arguments already, both fairly sorry excuses to justify being barbaric."

The "top of the food chain" bit was a joke. The overpopulation issue however is VERY real. You might want to research it before dismissing it outright.

"why do you cook it? That is not something that occurs with predator animals in nature. Human is the only species that cooks meat."

We cook it because we, as humans, are the only creature to have mastered the use of fire to improve the safety of our food. It's more expedient than waiting for the entire human race to develop an immunity to various parasites that exist in food. Other animals do use techniques to prep food, but fire is just beyond their capabilities even for monkeys and other smart animals.

"we don't have the claws to immobilize a zebra, and sink our teeny tiny incisors into them and tear away at their flesh."

Zebra is just one animal, and one that's not easy prey for even cheetahs and other predators as they are strong, fast, and have a thick hide. We are more than capable of biting into many animals with our teeth and ripping into their flesh with our nails. You just chose one that we can't. Like other intelligent animals, we use tools to get through the hides and shells of many animals. Vultures can't break an egg themselves so they drop rocks on them. That doesn't mean they weren't meant to eat eggs.

"The eye placement is a moot point because both herbivores and carnivores have differences within their own species."

It's only moot if you want to ignore science and biology, something atheists like yourself claim to subscribe to in the absence of religion. There may be exceptions, but that's no more common than warm blooded reptiles, egg laying mammals, snakes that give birth to live young, or mammals that are covered in scales instead of fur.

I never said these animals shouldn't have a pleasant habitat and what not. They are fully entitled to live. Part of their lives though is being prey to the animals that eat them. In some places, the animals eating them are humans.

"very sweet, and funny, tweet romance there."

Yes, they are adorable. Unfortunately they have to have a separate cage from the other birds because lovebirds are extremely jealous and he'll attack our parakeets when they get too close to his boyfriend.

so when does these poor star struck birdies get to see each other?. now i'm going to go back to being annoying again - you keep mentioning atheists so i am guessing you are a christian? i don't think there is anything at all in the bible that says you HAVE to eat meat. there are lots of christian vegetarians out there. there are a few that interpret the bible to say that it recommends a veggie diet but i have my doubts about this one too - it is not a guide to nutrition. again, comes down to your own choice. and i agree, if you make this choice then the animals you eat should be treated with humanely and with respect. the way intensive farming is done can be appalling.

oh just reread that - the star struck birdies live together? a happy ending.

Yes, Peepers and Tiki (that's their names) share a cage. The rest of our birds share a different, very large cage. At one point they all had free reign of our apartment, but they caused way too much damage. At another point we had a place with a nice porch that was walled on three sides with a screen on the fourth and they all lived with free reign of that porch. That was when the two started nesting (even though they can't have babies) and the lovebird became violent towards our parakeets who had dubbed themselves the Peepers fan club. Oddly enough he never had issues with the other cockatiels.

that sounds like the right way to keep them. i have heard that you can housetrain some birds and let them have the run of the house but doing this with lots, and stopping them tearing everything to shreds, is i imagine virtually impossible. btw what is this aviary you help at? what do they do and what kinds of birds do they have? i used to think of birds as comparatively boring animals (probably because of twitchers and their lists) but they are actually very individual little beasties.

It was the Suncoast Seabird Sanctuary in Florida. I haven't volunteered there a long time since I moved away from that area in 2008 and now live in New Jersey. They had just about every wild bird imaginable that was native or semi-native to Florida. Pelicans, black vultures, turkey vultures, owls, gulls, sandhill cranes, ducks, geese, etc. It's a bit small unfortunately when compared to how many birds are cared for there, but it is a great place that does great work with caring for and rehabilitating birds.

http://www.seabirdsanctuary.com/Home_Page.html

A lot of people are under the misconception that birds don't have notable personalities. They're fascinated when I show them things like how they'll play Hide-and-Seek. Parrots actually rank as the 5th smartest animal in the world. Crows I think were 9th on the list. Anyone who has ever had a crow as a pet (even though it's illegal in the US) will tell you stories about their personalities too.

crows are amazing actually. it is illegal to keep any wild bird as a pet here too without a special license but i know someone who had a pet jackdaw - a cat brought it in as a baby - close relative of crows and a very clever animal. disconcertingly so.

I have always stated that I want to minimize suffering. I also prefer prevention and education to abortion, but when the difficult decision comes, I leave it up to the girl or woman to decide for herself.

In some cases, abortion is also the more compassionate choice for the fetus if they are to be born with a grave and painful illness.

Would the world be better off without Stephen Hawking? Perhaps if his mother had known he would get ALS and be wheelchair-bound, unable to care for himself or even speak, she would have aborted him. However, we'd be robbed of a great scientific mind.

As someone with a grave and painful illness, I reject the idea that the only life worth living is one free from adversity.

I can't agree, Rollo.

Each parent chooses differently. If they know their child would be born with failing kidneys, or some very painful illness, and they love their child enough to spare them the agony, it is the more compassionate choice.

Each person chooses differently. That is to say, what might be an intolerable life for one person may be a life worth living to another. Parents have the right to choose many things for their children, I don't think life or death is one of them.
Quality of life is certainly best judged by the one who lives it.

"I leave it up to the girl or woman to decide for herself"

Correction, you leave up to the girl or woman to decide for the CHILD'S self.

Many of our greatest advancements in technology and medical science have come from the lives led by those who suffered from birth. Whereas you would prefer them exterminated to prevent suffering, others suffer less or not at all due thanks to the brave lives they have led. Why don't you want THEM to have the choice to decide if their life is worth the suffering they deal with?

Sarah Palin publicly and proudly announced, "I killed a moose".

My post was very tongue in cheek. I would never want them on a wall. It was mostly a stab at Sarah Palin, who would do such a thing.

I do understand where you are coming from.
SArah Palin lives in a country/state--Alaska where hunting is nohting new and moose are killed by season and not considered a disgrace to animal activist like we are.
I am defending her. I know cuz I lived in Montana for seven years and know how those northerners think and act..........
It's nothing new for a woman to kill an animal and truly they have to have their populations cut down to help with environmental control.
I didn't like it either and I am not a fan of hers but still I do defend why she killed a moose.
And, also that video was really old...............I saw that many years ago
Take care with animals as I love them all too. They need our protection and we are the ones who moved in and took their land/habitat away from them.
I have always felt like we should all be able to co habitate together and make life simpler. However, when it's man against beast we have to make those choices.
Take care.

I am happening across a ton of neat videos like that and I think they should be shown. I posted one of turkeys playing soccer, which they do on their own. I posted one of pigs playing video games, and one of a hippo giving mouth-to-mouth to another animal that was trapped in a crocodile's jaws.

I am going to keep posting them as I come across them, because there is much we don't know about them, because we refuse to find out. Many people just live with the belief that humans outrank them, and that's just how it is. They quickly forget the human species is one of the youngest.

I am going to guess you are equally as concerned about human overpopulation and you are constantly encouraging people to use contraceptives.

There is a monstrous difference between hunting for sport, and survival, and there is no need for animal meat for survival in humans. We can live without it.
Predatory animals can not.

There is a difference between a wolf living his natural life, and human breeding chickens just to die for our consumption. They are killed at two months of age, and unwanted chicks are gased every day. Industrialization and factory farming are not needed in our world.

Nature never intended for that.

The sun shines half a year in Alaska, and they are one of the oil capitals in our country. Surely they are capable of importing soil and may have to use greenhouses or saran wrap to keep the soil warm.

Northern Canada, Siberia, Norway, Finland and Sweden are all sub-Arctic regions of the world. Google is your friend if you want to learn what kinds of fruits and vegetables can grow in such climates.

"There is a monstrous difference between hunting for sport, and survival"

Yes and I oppose hunting for sport 100%. There are no shortage of video games and paintball contests for someone who enjoys that.

Moose are not farm animals and Sarah Palin is not a farmer, so your feelings on the treatment of chickens in farms are irrelevant to this discussion.

"there is no need for animal meat for survival in humans. We can live without it."

You're just plain wrong on that. Many people can subsist on a vegetarian diet, but not everyone. If necessary I could "survive" a meatless diet, but I get ill if I don't have a sufficient amount of meat, preferably red meat, each day. Speak to people who play football, hockey, or work as firemen, miners, or other occupations that require a lot of strength and endurance. See how many are vegetarians.

You're also acting as if a vegetarian diet is fully available to everyone. I can assure you it is not. In Alaska they already import MILLIONS of dollars in vegetables. Farming in Alaska is horribly insufficient to sustain their population.

"Surely they are capable of importing soil and may have to use greenhouses or saran wrap to keep the soil warm. "

Have you ever tried that? Are you aware of how the climate there would affect the materials used to build a greenhouse?

I'm curious, are you a farmer? Have you ever farmed in a subarctic climate? You keep making judgments and intolerant of people who live in an environment that you know nothing about.

Speak to people who play football, hockey, or work as firemen, miners, or other occupations that require a lot of strength and endurance. See how many are vegetarians.

i think there are plenty taskr. in fact because i have never been that interested in footballers' diets i decided to google one of these occupations. here you go: http://wiki.answers.com/Q.... you need protein for the muscle necessary for strenuous occupations. it doesn't HAVE to come from red meat.

I am really surprised that an open-minded liberal like ladybug would want to force the native Alaskan population to cast aside their rich history and cultural heritage; to require that they instead comply to a set of rules for life made up by those who have, I guess, decided that the native land is theirs to do with as they please, even if it means covering it in cellophane wrap. That seems a bit intolerant of minority rights to me.

The herbivore/carnivore debate is really a moot one. We evolved as we did because, as evolutionary theory tells us, this is what we had to do to survive. As Man moved into more hostile environments, he adapted his lifestyle yes, but over time, he adapted the environment to suit himself. He found ways to survive, he developed tools, hunting methods, etc. He expanded his diet to get the nutrients necessary for survival and he flourished. If evolution knows best, this is best.

JB, that link is really completely meaningless. It's actually less than a blog since it doesn't even include the name of the person making those claims much less the source of his information.

I can tell you right now that Tony Gonzalez is NOT a vegan. After about 7 years as a pro-bowler in the NFL he ATTEMPTED a vegan lifestyle after getting hooked on a book that said how wonderful it was. He lost weight and muscle mass, had trouble at training camp, and after consulting with several doctors including the one that wrote the book, he went back to eating chicken and fish, just avoiding red meat.

As for the other guys mentioned, I couldn't find any evidence of Joe Namath or Lawrence Phillips being vegetarians. Joe Namath retired over 30 years ago (and he wasn't a vegetarian back then) and Lawrence Phillips was a complete flop in the NFL so neither of them are prime examples. Robert Parnish doesn't exist, but rather appears to have been made up. Ricky Williams and Desmond Howard have both been retired for a while.

You can scratch and claw your way through NFL rosters and I'm sure you'll find a few active players that are vegetarian, but saying that means vegetarians are just as capable of developing muscle mass is like saying all mammals can lay eggs because the platypus does.

"He expanded his diet to get the nutrients necessary for survival and he flourished."

I agree, and we would effectively be deevolving if we intentionally altered our diet without cause, ignoring the nutrients we get from a balanced diet.

Not to be nitpicky...but Ricky Williams is not retired. He's playing for my Miami Dolphins and, if I'm not mistaken, owns a restaurant in Miami that sells pretty good black bean burgers. Being a vegetarian certainly hasn't slowed him down any according to his stats from last season.

Be as nitpicky as you like Spall. I thought he retired again. Now that I look at articles about it he announced his retirement a year ago, but it was an announcement that he would retire after 2010. I think he was just trying to confuse people, especially since he's already retired once before.

well i wasn't going to spend half an hour finding a reliable source on what footballers eat. i might later but meat is not essential to build muscle. you need protein that's all. you might have a better chance with calcium, which is more difficult to get from a vegan diet, but not impossible. i have seen this argument before though - it was in a children's encyclopedia from 1912 and said 'strong boys need meat'. haven't encountered it anywhere since. why are you so determined to prove you don't have free will here? a balanced diet can be vegan, vegetarian, include fish or include fish and meat. these can all also be very unhealthy. unlike you and ladybug i do not think that only one of these is what we we 'meant to eat'.

JB, my point was simply that some people, either genetically or based on their lifestyle, MUST eat meat to function properly. There is nothing "evil" about eating meat, farming, or hunting. It's natural for humans to eat meat.

If you want to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle, be my guest. Go chew the grass in your backyard for all I care. Just don't go around calling people evil because they have a different diet than you. I know you're not the one doing that, but Ladybug has a complete intolerance of anyone with a different diet than her and I find that, along with her intolerance of so many other things, to be offensive.