Anti-vegan

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I guess both vegans and non vegans have erroneous preconceptions about each others lifestyles.

I was not born a vegan. I was a meat eater for most of my life. I would be more than happy to hear what my misconceptions about non-vegans are.

I see that you said "preconception" not misconception. My apologies! That still implies that I have an idea about non-vegans without accurate knowledge, which I must respectfully disagree with.

Well, I don't consider meat eaters people who participate in the torture and murder of animals. I would say that is a big difference in opinion. That would indicate to me that this is a preconceived notion. But I don't want to argue. I answered this because I thought it was a simple question. I have no problems with people who are vegan. But I guess this will now be on my list of topics to not get involved in.

LOL That's what a discussions is. If they are not participating in it then what are they doing? Paying for it to happen doesn't count? I know you will not answer that. It is rhetorical anyway.

Woo.. I know everyone has different views.. when I see the meat .. the steaks, and the hamburger in the supermarket, I don't think of myself as a murderer. I don't even see those packages of meat as an animal.. but on the other hand, my purchasing the meat, is part of supply and demand.. and as the demand for meat goes up.. this is where I think of the factory farms that start slaughtering the animals before they are even dead.

My adopted mom has a small farm.. I have to say, she is the most humane .. not like factory farms... she has them shot and killed instantly and then they are taken on a truck to be processed.. and still.. when I have helped her to bottle feed some of these calves it hurts me to know these bulls and cows will either be butchered on the spot or sold to another farmer for breeding.

There is a part of me that abhors the treatment of these animals so that we have meat in the grocery stores.

What would happen to all the animals if they weren't eaten... maybe they would go extinct because there would be no need to breed? I don't know.. I do feel a lot of guilt buy buying meat in the store.. yet I enjoy eating meat... and my family is a meat eater.. so I am in a catch 22.

I could do the vegetarian lifestyle I think.. and my daughter could.. but her hubby is definitely a meat eater.

Again my dear, you have given me much to think about.

Most people find it easy to separate themselves from the truth of what they are buying. Meat is a dead animal, it died somehow, and not naturally. It had to be killed. Therefore people are supporting the killing of that animal and if that animal was raised on a factory farm, they are supporting the mistreatment of animals as well. That is a simple fact and for anyone to argue against that then they are not being logical. Of course most people do not look at meat and see the dead animal, as you said, Cookie.

I would never say to someone, "you are a murderer!" I merely say they have supported that "murder." I call it a murder, perhaps that is out of line, as the use of that word is up for serious debate. Regardless, they do support the killing.

Your adopted mom sounds like a really kind woman. It is people like that that give me hope that others will see how animals SHOULD be treated, even if they are "just commodities" or "just going to die anyway."

I hear the argument all the time that these farm animals will die out if we stop eating them. Many people think it is better for them to live on factory farms than not be born at all. I wholeheartedly disagree. I would rather there be no chickens, no cows, no pigs, than have those animals being treated the way they are. It is disgusting and they don't have a "life" instead from the day they are born they are beginning a slow death. That is how I see it.

I certainly do not WANT these species to die out, but I also don't think they would. First of all, let's say hypothetically everyone stopped eating meat from factory farms (yeah right!) there would still be other farms. And let's say everyone stopped eating meat altogether (I wish!) There would still be people who have these animals as pets. They would still breed and have babies, and who knows, maybe they would become more like dogs and cats and "companion" animals rather than be seen as a piece of meat or money.

I don't see eating meat as doing any animals any favors!

I have gone from a place where I thought I could never give meat up (bacon cheeseburgers were my favorite food), to looking at meat and not seeing it as a food item at all. I wouldn't want to put meat in my mouth any more than I would want to put a turd in there .

There I go again blabbering on and on... I really appreciate your comments and I'm glad I have given you something to think about

Unfortunately, I*do* look at people who for instance decide they won't eat meat as somebody who is possibly depriving themselves, and it also appears to be a disciplined lifestyle. I say this because I am not the type of person who can deprive myself in that manner. As long as nothing is taboo or off limits, I do fine. The instant I would do something like deny myself meat, carbs, sugar (see where I'm going with this?) I would likely go nuts and gorge on whatever it was. I have the occasional veggie type meal if that's what I want, but I don't feel compelled to 'protect' animals. The animals that end up at meat counters were raised for this purpose, it isn't as if it's somebody's pet. For the most part I would respect a choice though, as long as they respected mine.

This is a different subject entirely but people who are incredibly bound to their religion and stand by a major list of dos and don'ts also appear to deprive themselves, so maybe you can understand in those terms. You can tell when somebody really wants to do something or would enjoy it and they are saying no due to reasons you wouldn't. It doesn't make a lot of sense, so many people are not happy already. I just do not like to see others miserable if they do not need to be. I also realize that some folks are totally 'blah' about topics that bend me around and are pet peeves, so we all have our own causes we believe in. In the same manner, there are bound to be things that I am blah about in response, so it all evens out in the end.

I vote for Lori! Yay! I am constantly struggling with the best way to deal with the world around me in regards to eating meat. For most people it is not a big deal and to me it is one of the, if not the, biggest deals on this earth.

Thanks, I think it is one of the biggest problems we have here on earth. It's just sickening what happens to those poor animals...Lori

Aha! You hit the nail on the head my dear. '...make a stand for something they may or may not believe in.' Here is the point - people believe in a variety of things. I think it is important that people DO make a stand for what they believe in. This isn't to say that others are going to agree, others may even think you're crazy. We do all need to coexist on this planet without ripping each other up over it though, if possible, ie I'll have my steak and you don't, know what I mean? People simply cannot force each other to believe in the merit of what the other stands for or believes in, they simply have personal responsibility only for what they themself chooses to do.

Thank you I think you 'got' what I meant. There are so many diverse things people believe in, that's what make's this such an interesting world!!Lori

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Yes, it is the converting and the whole 'murdering' that gets to me. People simply have different perceptions of the same thing and neither group is going to change the others' minds. It's like the environmental issue and the folks that try to get everybody to go green. I guess if you want a compost heap in your yard, go ahead but I don't see it your way lol! As long as nobody is trying to convert me, I am happy. I don't want to be converted, neither do I want to convert anybody else. I just want each person to make individual choices to provide happiness for themselves in this life.

I think it stems from guilt, personally. They feel guilty for their choices so they lash out at those who are doing something to try to make things better. Subconsciously jealous...

It's not guilt. It's irritation that again somebody is trying to convert, witness, etc etc. Does live and let live mean anything to you? Everybody with a cause tries to preach. People for and against the ethical treatment of animals. Environmentalists and anti-environmentalists. Religious fanatics. The preaching and conversion has got to stop. I'm not trying to come off as angry here but the whole idea of trying to convert others because you feel strongly about something is plain silly. There are things I feel strongly about but I know I will never convince or convert other people to those causes - nor should I. I would like to elicit some understanding but that is not the same as getting them to agree. I do understand that veganism is important to some people, and that's great... as long as it goes no further and doesn't become about preaching that it is the 'right' and 'only' way to be. It is for you and that is enough. It may not be for other people and that is life.

I say "guilt" when it comes to people who make a concious decision to bash vegans. For example, people who take all that time to make an anti-vegan website. I am not saying the average meat eater who pokes fun at vegans necessarily feels guilty. I have witnessed a lot of people going from the extreme of bashing vegans to becoming one and admitting that they felt guilty and that is the reason they were so hostile in the first place.

I see=) I actually have never encountered an anti-vegan website and I kind of feel it is pretty childish that somebody actually came up with such a thing. It's kind of sad to make fun of anybody for a choice to that degree! Now I'm going to have to search to see how obnoxious those sites really are!

Ask any vegan and I'm sure they will tell you that they hear it all the time, or at least occasionally. I do not really understand it, but I have my ideas about why people are anti-things...

Oh yeah, people will hate anything...

I doubt anyone will actually come forward and admit it in this discussion. They would probably prefer to do it when their opinion is NOT asked...

Too bad cause I am intrigued as to their reasons.
Do you think they are afraid vegans would come an take away their meat?

I am curious, so I'll ask:
If there was a farm where the animals were treated as they should be, would you eat yoghurt or cheese produced there?

I would never eat any animal products regardless of how they are raised or treated because I do not believe that animals are here for us to "use" in any way. Also, it disgusts me. That said, I do not think it is "wrong" to eat animal products or meat that comes from such a place. I think that these smaller farms should be supported, but alas, people want their cheap meat, they want their fast food, and I fear that factory farms will soon be the just about the ONLY place to get these products. It scares me.

Thank you for the answer

Yes it is scary. I do not understand how anyone can bear working on these factory farms. What people do to animals to make them suit their goals is horrid. Like the belgian cattle for instance.

Luckily there are some smaller scale farming where I live. It is not easy to be able to live on what one earns from farming here. This has led to some small scale production of more luxurious food. As most people have more than enough money there is a growing market for ecological food. Animal health is usally better on these farms.

We are moving to my mans farm in not too long. His farmer friends run their farms in a completely different way than on the factory farms. The sheep get to be in the mountains. They have enough space, and are free to move about when they are inside as well. There are some positive things going on.

I think that sometimes I am seen as a "preachy" "argumentative" and "aggressive" vegan, to which I say BAHAHA! I never call people names based on what they eat. I think it is wrong to call someone a "murderer", etc... I do not stalk discussions looking for people to bash. If I did then I would be going through all of the discussions on "chicken," "steak," "seafood," etc. I see them, but I just skip riiight over them. But I do have strong beliefs that to participate in the killing of animals for food is wrong. I think once someone knows the truth about the way animals are treated they have a responsibility to at the very least support smaller, non-factory farms. If they choose not to then I lose respect for that person's dietary choices. Most people are simply uninformed and I do not blame them. The time I come out of the woodwork and seemingly "attack" another is when they say hypocritical things. For example, "I love all animals, but I still eat meat." That just doesn't work. It can't and it is illogical. Another example, "I think it is wrong to torture animals on factory farms, but I just like my steak, I can't help it."

It is not about getting my "beliefs" out there the way a Christian would, for example, because I am dealing with absolute facts. The existence of God and what is in the bible is up for interpretation, but the way animals are treated every day on factory farms are simply facts. I think it is important for people to know what the facts are to act as they see fit.

I could go on, but I will spare you...

LOL Thanks for that sweety but honestly you don't need to spare me! I did not mean to imply that you were out there the way some vegans are judging others on what they eat etc just as I do not judge others for not believing in God! I was just trying to illustrate that there are small minorities in every 'belief group' (for want of a better phrase) that do go over the top and that do besmirch the way that other people view them as a whole! I know I am not wording this very well as I am very tired but I hope you get my drift! xxx

Oh yeah, I definitely get your drift. In the "vegan" group, they are called "militant vegans" and they can be rather scary... but I respect that they feel so strongly. I fear one day I may end up on that "dark side" if I don't hold myself back sometimes...

LOL I am sure you will not enter the darks side - or at least not too far over sweety! I just wish we could all be more tolerant of and respectful to each other - would make life a lot easier and sweeter! Then again all those with a savoury tooth instead of a sweet might not be too happy with that! hee hee hee xxx

LOL! i think it would be horrible to end up going vegan AGAINST your will! I would be very very very angry about anything I was forced into when it wasn't my choice. As long as there are always choices to suit everybody, the world is still a good place.

I didn't say anything about forcing anyone to do anything, mommyboo, I just said if there was a crisis and meat became scarce that is would be hard on those who are not open to an alternate meal...

I took it to mean forced by circumstances, just like people now who are squeezed into driving less or not driving at all due to the high cost of gasoline. I can't imagine being in a position where I would HAVE to stop driving, in the same manner it would take a LOT to be forced into not having meat around. Some people fold at the first sign of trouble, I am just saying for me it would have to be dire circumstances like no supply before I would change what I did... or perhaps I would see if my dad would take me hunting.=) Yes I am being a bit silly.