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myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics 4 years ago

In 1804, the United States government passed the twelfth amendment to the Constitution to establish the Electoral College. Before, the passage of the twelfth amendment, the Constitution referred to the electors as “the college of electors”. There are many different ideas as to why the Electoral College was set up for the United States everything from, the voters not being educated enough to vote for president, to the government wanting to protect the smaller states from the larger states giving each state equal power regardless of population. As for the larger state smaller state debate, I do not see how the Electoral College actually protects smaller states since they have less electoral votes. An expert on Constitutional Law from Yale, Akhil Amar Reed can be quoted as saying, “If one person, one vote is the best way to pick a state governor, why isn’t it the also the best way to pick a national president?”

We all sure know by now that the Electoral College went against popular vote before, leaving some voters such as myself feeling like they should not bother voting because of this issue. Some people may or may not know that the Electoral College has actually gone against the popular vote four times throughout history. Doesn’t seem like that many times does it? But, isn’t once too many? Does the USA not tout its democracy? How democratic is it when your vote may or may not be counted? Do you feel smart enough to cast your vote or do you feel that the United States should get rid of this failed system? Or should we continue to vote and the vote may or may not be counted? What are your thoughts?

 

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mehale (1565) response was accepted on 10/8/2008.
denotes best response, click it to go to the best response.
tags:  voting, electoral college, constitution, constitutional law, educated enough
 
1. myLot reputation of 75/100. Scotlandthebrave (1267)   4 years ago

If one person, one vote is the best way to pick a state governor, why isn’t it the also the best way to pick a national president?”

Akhil Amar Reed has got a point.
Does the USA not tout its democracy?
All the time!!!

How democratic is it when your vote may or may not be counted?
Well,it wouldnt be tolerated here,thats for sure.It doesnt sound like any other democratic process in the modern democratic world.

Do you feel smart enough to cast your vote or do you feel that the United States should get rid of this failed system?
I think that if the vote of the individual is not counted once,then the democratic process isnt really democratic,it needs to be fixed.Why not follow the lead of the UK?


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

What does the UK do? I know that some countries have stopped using the process of their system of an electoral college.


myLot reputation of 75/100. Scotlandthebrave (1267)  4 years ago

Our nation is split into things called constituencies(spelling)
Then each party puts forward a candidate in which ever constituency they choose
The electorate vote
The candidate in each constituency with the most votes win
The party with the most elected members forms the government
Simple,straightforward,easy,
Mind you,I think proportional representation would be fairer,but then the whole process would have to be restructured,
Our way works,which ever party gets the most members of Parliament voted in wins


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Sounds like by American standards it would be expensive lol


myLot reputation of 75/100. Scotlandthebrave (1267)  4 years ago

I think not,
I understand that your 2 main parties spend an awful lot running campaigns in each state.
I reckon we spend peanuts in comparism

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2. myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

I ahve to admit, I am on the fence with this one. On one hand, I feel the electorial college is subject to instability in the voting proccess and can cause serious contesting in elections. On the other hand, it does make sure that small states like mine get propper reopresentation in government. I would like to see it at least changed so that the college delegates are legaly bound to cast their votes with who they are chosen to represent.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Ok X I see your point but would you explain to be how a small state with 2 electoral votes can out weight the larger states with say 54 electoral votes? Why should a candidate waste time in a smaller state when they could just work over the bigger states and a few middle ground states? Ok lets just say this to give a better example: say a candidate takes- California, New York, Texas, Ohio, PA, and a few other middle ground states (for the sake of this example lets take out the red/blue factor of each state) how could the smaller states even matter?


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

EXAXCTLY my point. 'Iddle states like mine (though new hampshire is considered signifigant symbolicly) get lost in the wash.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

And it still doesn't sway you away from the Electoral College system? If I remember correctly isn't your state one of the states that split their Electoral College votes? Sorry not good with the little East coast states.


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I believe we are an all votes cast state actualy.


myLot reputation of 60/100. Taskr36 (6784)   ranked 284 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

If you removed the electoral college they wouldn't bother as much with California and Texas. Those states are massive and require a lot of campaigning and traveling. Remove the electoral college and all efforts will be focused on New York, New Jersey, and the other northeast states with the largest concentration of voters. Larger states with lower density that require more work will be deemed a lower priority.

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3. myLot reputation of 73/100. bobmnu (4822)   ranked 224 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

If you check a voting patterns by County you will see that a very small part of the country could control the election. USA Today did a map of the 2000 and 2004 election http://www.usatoday.com/n...
and it shows that major population centers tend to vote Democrat while the rest of the country votes Republican. In the 2000 election VP Gore carried 674 Counties while President Bush carried 2,439 Countries.Large Urban areas tend to have more Government jobs, more welfare, and more Colleges and Universitys. All these groups tend to vote for big government and more government spending. By having the Electorial College it makes sure the rights of the minority (non City Dwellers) are considered.

This prevents the candidates from only addressing the needs of the large urban areas at the expense of the rural areas.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Thanks for the map but I don't really know how acurate it really is because according to the map Ohio, the state that I live in, shows very little Republican counties and yet over the years Republicans have ruled the majority of the time. Besides the fact that when if the weather is not great during election day "urban area dwellers" usually have an easier time getting to the voting polls than the "non city dwellers" do, well at least in areas that are in Ohio.


myLot reputation of 73/100. bobmnu (4822)   ranked 224 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Red is /Republican and Blue is Democratic. You will see that the Blue is around Cleveland and I think Columbus.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I think Ohio is another California lol We vote all across the board. I can't tell if that is actually Cleveland in the Eastern area the counties are much too small. The little blue spot looks like it is either Columbus or maybe an outlaying county. Which both Cleveland and Columbus are big "urban" areas.

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4. myLot reputation of 60/100. Taskr36 (6784)   ranked 284 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

Areas with lower density would be completely ignored without the electoral college. Politicians want to do the most campaigning with the least traveling. Right now we all know that Texas is an important state, but frankly, politicians have to cover a lot of ground to get their message out. They're ranked 26th in density which would effectively make them the 26th most important state in a popular vote election. California would be 11th.

The result would be that states with smaller, but more concentrated populations, would be what really mattered. Campaigning would be focused on the northeast around states like Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New York. Now I know you want to think in the method of "each vote counts equally", but in such a system, the votes in the lower density states in the midwest would matter less and Presidential candidates would ignore them while campaigning, and subsequently ignore their desires after gaining office.

The electoral college is not perfect, but it's the best we can do to make sure people's votes matter no matter where they live. You mentioned the popular vote has lost to the electoral vote 4 times, but that is inaccurate. Many people cite 1824 when Andrew Jackson won the popular vote, but lost the election. The truth is, he also won the electoral college. He lost that election because it was a four man race and at the time the law said that the winner had to receive the majority of the votes, not simply the plurality. In the end the House of Representatives elected John Quincy Adams. So the total is really 3 times the electoral college has defeated the popular vote.

Sorry, just had to throw in a history lesson.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

When the Electoral College voted in the election of 1800 there was a tie. The election was then thrown into the House of Representatives, leaving them to vote on who would become president. This voting lasted over a month before the president could be determined. The president did not take office until March and most generally they take office in January. The next occasion that the Electoral College came into question was the election was in 1824 the House again voted on the president, after the election none of the candidates had the majority of the Electoral College votes to win. On Election Day in 1888 Cleveland won the popular vote yet Harrison won the presidency, because he won the electoral votes. The election of 1888 was very upsetting to many American people because Cleveland had such a large margin of votes over Harrison. Then of course in the 2000 election Al Gore won the popular vote and George W. Bush won the Electoral College, and became the president. The state of Florida was disputed and a recount of the votes started.


myLot reputation of 60/100. Taskr36 (6784)   ranked 284 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Those are all valid examples, except as I stated, 1824 was different. Andrew Jackson won BOTH the popular vote and the electoral college.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I know I screwed up I should have referred to the election of 1876, S. Tilden won the popular vote and Hayes won the electoral vote (1 vote) even though Tilden won by over 200,000 popular votes.

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5. myLot reputation of 94/100. orochi (233)   ranked 576 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

Sadly no because i hate the man who is on over here in denmark right now because he have done nothing to help Denmark at all. He said our schools must be the best the only schools he is helping is the private schools and dont give a f**k about us in the free schools. Besides he promise higher wages but hes excuse everytime is: there wasnt enough time for that. Besides he is an idiot who soppourt the american soldiers work in iraq and so on. When is he gonna get Denmark has nothing to do with that war. But anyway i think its a little stupid we are only allowed to vote as a 18 year old but we are allowed to smoke and drink alcohol as 16 year old.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I didn't know that about Denmark. It sounds like the president seems to have a lot in common with American politicans; lot of talk and no action. Here in America citizens are able to vote, smoke and if the draft is reinstate ever be drafted but cannot drink alcohol. Hopefully your president will find himself out of office soon and you will get a good one.


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

saw the note on alchohol and had to comment, a few local NH legislators were talking about bringing the drinking age in the state back down to 19. DOn't think I agrea with that, especialy after seeing the conduct of even the 21 year olds in the bar here in town, but, I would be glad at least to see us tell the federal govt to stuff their highway funds and exercise our own control over it.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Well it must be admitted that is a stupid law if we have the draft, it's like telling the kids it is ok to go off and die in war but you can't drink legally lol

I agree that it should be up to the states. I would say something differently but I'm not steering off this topic and leaving myself open to my stalker lol


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

LOL!
It is up to the states zeph, there is no national drinking age. the federal government a while ago started threatening to withhold highway funding as black mail to get the states to raise their drinking ages. Vermont and new hampshire were the last in the union to go up to 21 if I'm not mistaken. New hampshire changed to 21 right before I turned 18 and vermont went from 19 to 21 a month after I turned 19, so I was grandfathered in, pertty convenient since I live a 10 minuet walk and 2 minute swim to vermont.


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

interesting


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I know that it is up to the states silly but they are too afraid to lose their federal funding for roads, streets, highway, county roads ect lol If they would stand up and say forget you we don't want to take your federal funding for road work and we are lowering our drinking age. But, ok since you brought it up I'm going there. lol They could just lower the drinking age allow federal funding to be cut then hire a lobbiest to get them earmarks.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

Oh, you dared to go with the interesting comment? lmao


myLot reputation of 83/100. xfahctor (7623)   ranked 42 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

LOL!
Yes, I dropped the "I" bomb
seriously though, our hard liquer is stae sold, it was hypothesized that when if we lowered the drinking age, it may just expand liquer revenue enough to make up for the loss of federal funds. seemed a stretch to me but I supose when you cout sales from out of state in the formula it becomes more plausable....lol...oh wouldn't the surrounding states SCREAM if we lowered it though.

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6. myLot reputation of 59/100. shoffman2000 (616)   ranked 340 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

Time for a little history lesson. The electoral college was designed to respond to the concern that the masses in say NY or MA populated states would steal the election from the less populated states say iowa or vermont. The idea to compare the presidential election to state governor race is like comparing eggs with pine trees.The governor race is in a specific state and the presidential election is a national election. It would be foolish to abolish the electoral college since it has been the foundation of the usa successful survival through many crisis times.Our Constitution has stood the test of times and has been ammended from time to time. Ammending the Constitution is not easy;it should not be!!!Our current selection of candidates is not that great. Too bad Tony blair could not run for President but he barred by the US Constitution from running.

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7. myLot reputation of 91/100. agihcam (1223)   ranked 1,598 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

This is our responsibility, so we should do it even though we know that
some of them or maybe our votes will not be counted.
But we need to support the program of our government and our country as well.


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

True. But I have a question for you since you are international, how does it look to other countries that the US touts its democracy yet sometimes votes in the United States do not count? I personally look at it as a "do as I say not as I do" type standard.


myLot reputation of 91/100. agihcam (1223)   ranked 1,598 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

this is happening also here in our country.
even the dead people can vote and your vote will goes
to other candidates.
that's normal and I don't want to waste much time for them
as long as I have done my part for the country which is to vote
for those candidates which for me is the best, then I was done
with my task. I'll just wait for the results.
But don't want to go on the street and join the rally.

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8. myLot reputation of 92/100. annjilena (2645)   ranked 1,036 out of 3,986 in politics   4 years ago

i hope so many have paved the way for us to vote


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

I feel that the citizens of the United States are educated enough to make an informed decision about voting but in my opinion the Electoral College almost leaves a stigma about the voting system. If the Electoral College always went with the popular vote than it really wouldn't be an issue but the Electoral College doesn't always go with the popular vote.

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9. jess_ica (10)   4 years ago

Honestly, no. And I wish I weren't registered to vote. I'm really quite an irresponsible citizen. I wish I had more time so I could read and learn more about everything involving politics, but I just don't right now. I'm thinking about looking in to seeing if there is a way to un-register to vote since I feel so irresponsible... and I'd rather not get jury duty all the time. ;)


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

The nice thing about registering is that when you move you have to reregister. I don't know if one can unregister, I would imagine you could call your local elections board and they would be able to tell you.

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10. myLot reputation of 83/100. frankiecesca (1658)   4 years ago

I am not a US citizen so would not be voting anyway but, it seems like some very valid points - I try and vote when I can over here but find sometimes I just cannot be bothered as things seem to stay the same no matter who leads anyway! x


myLot reputation of 81/100. ZephyrSun (3727)   ranked 102 out of 3,986 in politics  4 years ago

That's how some Americans feel when they vote and the person that they vote for wins but the Electoral College goes against their vote and elects the other candidate. But I'm sure that if the winner actually got the position things probably wouldn't change either.

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