these four legs have rights, those four legs don't  

i think one of the reasons for the bad treatment of farm animals is that people prefer not to think of them as animals but rather as things. i feel if you plan to eat something you should be honest about it, treat the animal properly and not try to pretend that your bacon grew on a tree.

lol so true, but wouldnt that be nice? a bacon tree. I would certainly buy a couple.. mmm bacon

i am sure whatever some pretend bacon is made from DOES grow on trees but i doubt the result tastes much like bacon. on the 'fascinating' subject of meat substitutes why do veggie hotdogs taste the same as meat ones? is it because 'meat' ones actually do not contain any meat?

is that because they scare you or you just don't like them?

I think most people who were addressed by an out-of-control Rottweiler would be a bit concerned! Dachshunds do not scare me, though, they are just a confounded nuisance.

Taking the fear factor (which is partially there) out of the occasion, it is like my attitude to humans. If I am left alone to do my thing, I do not get irritated. If I am walking past someone's property, minding my own business and without any intention of entering the aforesaid place, it annoys me when dogs start growling at me!

I once considered the idea of building a moat and filling it with crocodiles. If anyone wanted to taunt the crocs, they might get what they deserve. Crocodiles do not irritate anyone who does not get in their space!

my eggs are free range too - one of the few things i am prepared to spend a bit extra on. if i ate meat i doubt i'd want to eat an animal i also kept as a pet too.

hiya sandra maybe a few think like that but actually i think it is often because people don't like to think about it at all, or at least when they do not consider them 'real' animals. our cultural relationship with dogs and horses is as you said completely different and people still have them in their lives, but farm animals are at a distance to most now.

i think we are the same page on some things setsuna. quoting myself: "i don't oppose eating meat, but i think if you choose to do this the animals you eat should be treated humanely and with respect."

Do you mean war and stuff? We are at war in Iraq and Afghanistan maybe on the way to war in Iran, Israel, Africa, China(?) Do you mean torture or rendition, do you mean incarceration, jusicial killing? There are so many questions I find it difficult to have a view - it changes according who I last listened to frankly.

I mean war, and I also mean the way we treat each other as people...all the racism and crap...treating people like dirt because they are poor...the whole thing.

yes our own come first but i see no reason not to be concerned about other species too. also i have absolutely no chance of ending war but i can eat free range eggies.

[goes off to eat some eggs]

PA - I think as long as you dont develop a bond with the animal, you would be indifferent. If you'd been to any abattoir may be you'd feel their pain. The unpleasant aspect is not shown to us.

No, I can eat venison, but I can't shoot Bambi. I have been out hunting, and I just can't pull the trigger. I mean, I can pull the trigger to shoot at targets and hit them and do really well. When it comes to another living thing, though, I just can't kill it. I have helped skin and gut them once they are dead, although admittedly that is not one of my favorite jobs, either. I just can't kill them.

i think lots of people avoid some types of meat but not others. for example i know lots of people who like beef but wouldn't eat horse meat, or rabbit :) or might eat rabbits but not guinea pigs. it's not exactly hypocrisy unless you say well it is morally wrong to eat blah but i eat lots of blah, although it is a very similar animal.

we had chickens when i was little too, little bantams. i agree the bit extra for free range stuff is worth it - one of the few things i will spend a bit more on.

exactly, we are not meant to be abusers whatever you believe. if you believe in god then a compassionate god i imagine would wish for people to be compassionate too, if you don't you surely believe that behaving kindly is the better part of human nature.

Even for those who aren't convinced about the existence of a higher power, or God...what exactly is the point of harming creatures that cannot defend themselves? What does it say about the person they are inside?

we prefer to think of dinner as being a thing, pets we can see as people but i think most people feel more comfortable not thinking about what dinner used to be at all. the effects of ignoring this though means a lot of cruelty has no attention paid to it.

Quite so. I haven't noticed any humans being ill-treated to feed our 4-legged friends... (of course, chickens aren't 4-legged but, again, you know what I mean)