Bill Ayers was a hero.  

So, it took them up until five years ago to ban the execution of minors and the mentally ill 8 years ago? It took until after the year 2000 to finally do what was right? That doesn't bother you in any way? And it doesn't bother you that four supreme court justices still wanted to execute minors? Sick. Just sick.

Why are incapable of ever expressing acknowledgement or remorse for any of the horror that the right wing has upheld for decades, if not centuries?

Christians are welcome to a cross on their own tomb, not on a group tomb that holds other members of other religions. Are you so intolerant of diversity that your blinders only allow you to conceive "fairness" as "intolerance to christians?"

Ayers was not the leader of The Weather Underground. They all had different communal roles in their organization, and no one followed anyone's specific orders. It would behoove you to watch the movie.

I had to, as this was before my time. You and I are the same age, so, clearly it was before your time, too.

You're thirty-one?! I would have thought you were twenty-one.

"It took until after the year 2000 to finally do what was right? That doesn't bother you in any way?"

No more than it bothers me that slavery wasn't outlawed until the 1800's or that segregation didn't end until the mid 20th century. Every step takes time. Why can't you ever be happy when something goes right, but instead keep whining about things you didn't like about the past?

"Christians are welcome to a cross on their own tomb, not on a group tomb that holds other members of other religions. Are you so intolerant of diversity that your blinders only allow you to conceive "fairness" as "intolerance to christians?"

What's fair about desecrating the tomb. Did ANYONE related to those buried there ask for the cross to come down? No, of course not. It was left wing extremists like yourself that just can't stand the sight of a cross as though it somehow injures you. If someone wanted to erect a symbol of another fallen heroes religion I wouldn't object to that being alongside the cross.

I remember an interview of one of the family members of the fallen hero who was Jewish. He steadfastly stood against this, and rightfully so. There is a universal way to commemorate the soldiers, and not religiously exclusive.

Can you find that interview, because I've looked and can find nothing showing that any relatives of ANYONE buried there objected to the cross. If they did object I would say they can put up whatever they like honoring their relatives, but no desecrate the tombs of others because they do not share the same faith. That's just showing intolerance towards Christians. Something you do often.

The real history books? Sadly, most of history is hidden. In our day and age, the only way we have access to the truth is via file sharing.

I have been much more accepting of others viewpoints than anyone on mylot has mine. I do my due diligence on subject matters, before drawing any conclusion. This was a bit of a kneejerk post, self-admittedly, but I am sick of watching ignorant people refer to civil rights heroes as "terrorists".

It's kind of like calling Stupak, who is very prolife a "baby killer", because he voted in support of Obamacare, and then playing, "No, no, I said, "IT's a baby killer." as their sorry excuse.

I have proved many people wrong who challenge me, and that does not make me intolerant in any way. Maybe saying it is is easier than becoming introspective on the subject matter, and evaluating your personal responsibility in the matter.

I, too, have to do more to fix the world we live in. No one is perfect, but at least I try to better myself and my involvement in the things going wrong in our world today.

"In our day and age, the only way we have access to the truth is via file sharing."

We have an ole saying too, "garbage in...garbage out". And while I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt...I can't, after reading the rest of your responses to posts. You're the one who is "ignorant", I hope a few more years of real life will help you get a better perspective on life.

'Tis fairly ignorant to call someone else ignorant who simply disagrees with you.

My perspective on life stems from my health issues. I have been blue, and hardly came to at one point, until the paramedics showed. I was 29 then. And that is the first time since the onset of my seizure disorder six years ago that I was actually scared, despite my having one in the bathtub a few years prior.

When I disappear into unconciousness, I see nothingness, and am unaware of where I went to. There are other things that I won't divulge that have helped shape my views, but the long and short of it: we only live life in this body once.

We all know nothing of the hereafter.

Given that, we need to live in a just society, and achieve world peace, and, three human-made problems have occured so we all have to fight just to live.

Religion - human-made.
The Monetary System - human-made.
Politics - human-made.

Corporate America, the game of politics, and relious zealots all make this world very inhumane.

I will feel the same way ten years from now, and fifty years from now. I am still learning more about who I am and I think given more research and more time, I will come to some firmer choices and outlooks, but leave room for evolving.

I think the more I mature, though, I will draw further and further from the right wing.

I didn't call you ignorant because we disagree. My description was based on your discussion/posts/rationale.

I'm sorry to hear about your health issues and I hope you get the disorder to a manageable state...because you're right, we only live life in this body once...

I do disagree with the human-made problems you've listed. I could list a whole lot of human-made problems and I'm not sure the three you mentioned would come up on the top of my list. Sure there are problems in every religion, with the monetary system...politics, but I'm not convinced they're the reason the world is "inhumane".

I would hope that as you mature, you would leave room to learn/evolve. I'm still doing that in my 60s...it certainly can be done at your young age.

I am just at a stage in my life where I have seen all the damage rendered by these three groups, and for me, it is inexcusable.

What do you think tops those three problems I listed?

POWER. Man's insatiable need for power. You've heard the terms power and greed; note "power" is always the first word.

And I might add, it's not these groups of people (religion, monetary and politics), it's a few power-hungry people who claim to be religious or claim to be your/my representative, that have put such a bad taste in your and my mouth. Then there are a few nut jobs in each of these groups, but as a whole, not all people who are religious, or are in the financial system or who are in government are bad. It's unfair to generalize/stereotype anybody that way...

I think the combination of religion, politics, and money all enable and perpetuate power.

I sometimes assume people understand what I am thinking without actually typing it out. I am usually referring to the fanatically religious folks, like the diehards, who are easily swayed. I think politicians appeal to them for their religious views (read: manipulation), and are granted some elections because of that, even though we supposedly have a separation of church and state.

I think corporate personhood is like a license to plunder and cause grave harm to our world and several species on the planet. I think people who earn an income are not bad people, but people who earn an income doing shady things, or corporations doing criminal acts because the fines are cheaper than complying with the laws are terrible.

I think the game of politics is dangerous.

The problem is that not enough people distrust corporate America or even understand their involvement in everything. We know lobbyists exist, but not enough people acknowlegde their funding of equipment in public schools, and at what price, etc. Not enough people stand against slave labour wages. Not enough people are aware of things like the privatization of water, or the dumping of pollutants in water like flouride, or hormones in dairy cattle, etc.

I often think of what I would do if I had any power, or money (usually go hand in hand). I fantasize about going to the poorest city in the country and fixing it up ethically, and sustainably, and then having those residents give back donations where and when they can, and then we can go to the next poorest city, and the next, and so on. And then go abroad.

It's a utopic dream, but it is what I would do if I had power. I wouldn't want to dominate the world.

"I expect this discussion to attract the same sheeple and group thinkers, and those who are blatantly unaware of how unintelligent they are."

You began by calling all those who disagree with you "ignorant". Besides, if we're all so unintelligent, we couldn't be anything but blatantly unaware. How can you discriminate thusly against the handicapped? I feel repressed and discriminated against.

I'm catching most of your drift/thoughts. I'm not as down on religion as you are, but I am upset with big government and big business. And yes, I think we need major reforms of both (corruption, lobbies, etc.) and to downsize government so it's less intrusive in our lives. And, I think you're selling most people short. Many people are aware of the issues you speak; they just aren't as vocal as you are. Your utopic dream is a nice one...maybe someday you'll actually get a chance to plan/execute.

Hats off to Rollo - you gave me a chuckle. I guess there are some people I expected to make an appearance here, and, unfortunately, those who I expected have something that doesn't register quite right upstairs. They are kind of dimwitted, and tend to overlook the bigger picture.

It's frustrating when we are on a forum, and we all have different vantage points of the same thing. I do sometimes agree with a lot of the people on different subjects. We will all agree on the "what", but not the who, how and why, and what lead us there, etc.

Clearly, not everyone who disagrees with me is ignorant, nor did I preface this dicussion that way. But some really, really are.

There are some people who post who are really well educated, there are some who articulate things very intelligently, and then, and you have to admit it too, there are some who are not fully there. Short of calling them dumb, there are some people who like living in denial, and others who choose to wear blinders. And, sadly, some were given those blinders at birth by their parents, so they consider certain things to be truth without questioning them.

I really don't want to single anyone out, but there was a post I was involved in, and I asked someone their opinion about something and their knowledge about it, and they posted five links they found in a google search that they barely skimmed. I called them on it, because they were unable to even form their own opinion, so they sought out the opinions of others. That, to me, is frustrating, and selling themselves, and this dicussion forum short. And fairly insulting to me, as well, to not engage in a real conversation.

Hofferp - I have watched people get overly absorbed into religion to the point of abusing it and actually losing themselves in the process, and I have also seen the good some religious organizations do. I think it is something I am very embittered about, and its not an easy subject for me to deal with, because I get consumed with anger about it.

I have my prized possession: my anarchy t-shirt. I love Rage Against the Machine and System of a Down. I love the song, "Killing in the Name Of", whose refrain is "F*** You, I won't do what you tell me." And, I love the simple saying, "Question Authority."

I have never favoured an intrusive government in terms of invading your home and causing destruction, but I like that the government is doing little things, like taking on the soda companies and having no more vending machines in school, and going after the Ronald McDonalds of the world.

I know that we should all eat how we choose, and we should educate ourselves better, but, we have to be realistic. America has risen to be notoriously fat. The fact that the government wants to take a stand against the most common contributors means something to me.

If they did the opposite and forced you to hoard big macs and fries and whoppers with cheese and buttery popcorn, etc, then I'd be hopping mad.

It's truly hard to articulate, because at first glance, it looks like it is a double standard on my part, but the action of at least trying to make fast food less appealing, and pop less accessible for kids is trying to support something healthy for us. The opposite could kill us (over time).

I think it is fairly obvious I am kind of lost in this world. I am not happy with my nuerological condition. I used to excel in school when I went, and I rendered some brain damage to the more analytical side of me. Math was my hobby. I loved it. A lot. I was preparing to go to a juco when I was 16 because I finished the courses offered in high school, but ended up leaving school, leaving town, backpacking out of there.

Some nifty trivia about me - I love the stock market. I actually came up with a brilliant plan to flip a certain stock that always fluctuated $.50 cents per share each day, like clockwork. I make sample portfolios here and there. I used to watch Bloomberg obsessively. I even predicted some recession proof stocks, and they turned out to stay steady in our rockier times.

When the market crashes, and the devastation sets in, there is perverted beauty in it. Something so inanimate and human-made causes such widespread tragedy and catastrophe.

I wish I could write like that. Make my words leap from the page and cause such a physical reaction that ticker tape does. I even emailed Kurt Vonnegut Jr telling him of my dreams to write. Um, he never wrote back.

I could easily, EASILY, invest in some penny stocks, and double up until I reach a desired amount of capital so I can hit some higher cost stocks, and play the game. I think I get so angry about big business and wall street, because I could be that way if I wanted. I could put to rout any humanity that was destroyed to make me money. I could be so self-absorbed that I could shrug off any devastation that lead me to be wealthy. I could enjoy a sizable loft and materials.

I can't take them to the grave with me.

There are certain things that trigger my reactions to things and send me on my diatribes. When I learned that calfs are taken from their mommy's at 24 hours of age, it broke my heart. When I learned that third world countries sell their children either into slavery or beg Americans who make obscene profits off their labour, it tortures me. When I see that a million orphans have HIV in parts of Africa, it is really saddening.

It doesn't have to be this way.

But those who can live with themselves plundering from anyone and anything that gets in their way will fight to their graves to keep it that way, because people like the money, and the power it gives them.

I want to live life to its fullest. I bet the mommy of the calf wanted to enjoy their life together. Cows babysit for one another. A lot of animals have similar attributes to humans, and it is just easier to say animals were put here for us to eat, instead of thinking about what it was before they came to our plate.

If we really wanted to help third world countries, we would give them reasonable wages so that they can feed their own economy and become self-sufficeint. But, its like we don't want any possible competition. It's rigging the system, and it's absolutely cruel.

Obama said, "But a free market was never meant to be a free license to take whatever you can get, however you can get it." I agree.

I couldn't be the person who rakes it in. I have the know how. I could raise the capital. I just don't have the personality.

When I think about the Weather Underground, they were passionate about their two causes: civil rights and peace. And the one statement (paraphrased), "living your life like atrocities are not happening is just as bad as causing them" really hits home for me.

I am in my apartment now. It's nothing swanky, but it has running water, and electricity, and I have a computer. In some countries, they don't even have chalkboards, shoes, toothpaste, mosquito nets, etc.

But some religious organizations are making damn sure they have bibles. That sickens me. A lot.

We have $400 designer bags while there are countries where Malaria is a cause of death.

It baffles me. It hardens me. It hurts me.

It's just something I can't sit back and "let the cable tv wash over me" and forget a crappy life for many creatures exists.

If I don't get angry about it, who will?

Wow, you linked to some very biased and presumptuous articles.

Bill Ayers was never charged with attempted murder of the Murtach family.

A paragraph taken from the city-journal article you linked to:

But listen to Ayers interviewed in the New York Times on September 11, 2001, of all days: “I don’t regret setting bombs. I feel we didn’t do enough.” Translation: “We meant to kill that judge and his family, not just damage the porch.” When asked by the Times if he would do it all again, Ayers responded: “I don’t want to discount the possibility.”

That quote was taken out of context, and Ayers already explained that he felt they did not do enough in terms of ending the violence in Vietnam. He, and other members of the Weather Underground, have always said no harm was ever intended, as their mission was to end violence.

You took your paragraph about Dohrn directly from the website.

You cleverly left this paragraph out:

"It was a joke," she told the sympathetic Times reporter, Dinitia Smith; she was actually protesting America’s crimes. "We were mocking violence in America. Even in my most inflamed moment I never supported a racist mass murderer."

It takes people capable of their own thoughts, and with a moderate amount of intelligence to understand what she was trying to convey.

All I took from your post is that I need to read Fugitive Days.

I did look up some other Bill Ayers stuff online, and found this, which has gone by ignored:

http://foolocracy.com/200...

I amend my post, considering that Ayers never actually served time for his terrorist antics. I forgot he walked away free because of questionable search methods.

Ayers never served jail time. The charges against him were dropped because of illegal methods used by the feds in catching him.

The difference between the Weather Underground and the Tea Party is that the Weather Undergound had a genuine goal that was to help all people achieve equality and to stop the violence in Vietnam.

The Tea Party is made of random splinter groups that shout racist obscenities and absurd hypotheticals about communism or other such nonsense. Not one positive thing has come from the Tea Party. They are divisive and ignorant.

* Did you watch the movie I linked to? It's quite informative and can outline exactly why things got to such an extreme level.

My logic is not "If you are not heard, blow something up." My logic is, "If you are doing everything in your power to stop injustice and needless violence, and you are not heard, then you have no choice but to resort to extreme methods."

The tea party does not do either of those things. As I stated before, they are divisive, and ignorant.

"The difference between the Weather Underground and the Tea Party is that the Weather Undergound had a genuine goal that was to help all people achieve equality and to stop the violence in Vietnam."


Which doesn't justify their actions. It actually devalues their message.

My logic is not "If you are not heard, blow something up." My logic is, "If you are doing everything in your power to stop injustice and needless violence, and you are not heard, then you have no choice but to resort to extreme methods."

The two concepts are the same thing, and differ only in detail. In the end you are supporting violence when all else seems to fail, which I find disturbing. The Weather Underground was anti-US imperialism (among other things), not anti-violence (needless or not). Their actions show us this.

I can see your point, to some extent, but I can't agree, or even fathom why you could agree with such militant measures.

I question whether you truly agree with the actions taken by the Weather Underground, or if you are simply being confrontational for the sake of it. You begin your post by insulting the intelligence of those who disagree, and then stereotyping them into a particular segment. I can't take your thread seriously. It feels almost like you wrote it to "stick it" to the those on the right. Your vitriol and disgust you display in this thread for those who think differently from you is not unlike the qualities of the Tea Party you seem to dislike. I wonder if you realize this?

There are people on mylot that are right wing nuts and truly can't think for themselves as evidenced in most of their posts.

Blowing up a monument is not violence done to a person. The Weather Underground never intended to harm anyone. Killing Vietnamese civilians and harming, maiming, and killing our own soldiers in the process was.

* Did you watch the movie I linked to? You will be outraged when you do, and you will understand more of what happened. I was not alive then, so this helps to inform me, and I will be getting Ayers' book, too.

In one of the links given above - here is an essential paragraph.

"I don’t think you can understand a single thing we did," explains the pampered Weatherman bomber Bill Ayers "without understanding the violence of the Vietnam War."

Would you kill one man if you knew he was going to kill six million people? And, lets say you could never kill someone. I couldn't. Could you blow up a statue to help raise awareness so people stop living in oblivion?

Let's say you can't blow up an inaminate object.

Could you at least understand why a group fighting against pure horror abroad, and domestic murders done to minorities could blow something up?

There is a doctor who injects monkeys brains with botox to try to find a solution to crossed eyes. His car was found with a car bomb under it.

I could never do that. But, I can understand why people do.

And, though that is extreme, a lesser version is activists who break into labs that test on animals and send those poor creatures to sanctuaries. I have no problem understanding that.

My logic falls along those lines.

The tea party is a joke. I have tried giving them an opportunity to prove that their movement had some merit, but they simply don't.

Re-reading this, it reminds me of the saying, "Would you jail a person for stealing a loaf of bread to feed their starving family?"

"Would you kill one man if you knew he was going to kill six million people?"

On Sept. 23, 1970, Boston PD Officer Walter Schroeder was gunned down outside a Brighton bank that had just been robbed by five members of the Weather Underground. One of the terrorists opened fire on the cop. With bullets from a machine gun the group ripped off from a National Guard armory in Newburyport just weeks earlier, Schroeder was shot in the back and killed.

Schroeder left behind a wife and nine children, aged 17, 15, 13, 10, 9, 7, 6, 2 and 11 months.

Is it your contention that Officer Schroeder was going to kill six million people or that killing him while robbing a bank was a noble mission to save the world from war? Tell that to his nine kids.

Rollo - that was taken out of context. I may not have been clear, but my contention was that Hitler would have killed six million people.

With regard to the Officer - "The trigger man was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole, but has been denied parole each time. The other gang members were all sentenced to prison but are now mostly freed."

The trigger man was not Bill Ayers, for one. And, this was an unfortunate casualty of a justified domestic war, which pales in comparison the the tens of thousands (including our own vets) killed in Vietnam, the subsequent birth defects, and the murder of minorities in our own country.

I will have to research more on this officer and the triggerman, but, this was a genuine casualty. Not from a war for profit, but from a war for peace.

I said I didn't want any canned responses, or immediate kneejerk retorts. Did you go to the trouble of watching the movie I linked to? It gives more insight on what the Weather Underground did and why.

Casualty of war eh? So how many Vietnamese did that police officer kill? Yeah, that's what I thought. They were more than happy to kill anyone who got in their way ladybug. They were TERRORISTS.

"The trigger man was not Bill Ayers"

And the guy that physically forced men, women, and children into gas chambers wasn't Hitler. I guess that means he gets a free pass from you too right?

Taskr - that is so far off base, I can't even suggest it is like comparing apples to oranges.

I think I have caught on to what you do now. You read the title of someone's post. You skim over the content. You never look at or watch anything in full, and then you just play "I am gonna prove you wrong" link wars.

You can, "yeah, that's what I thought", all you like, but, you have no comprehension what you are talking about. Their intention was never to kill anyone. It happened. It is regrettable that it happened. It can not be undone, but the person who did pull the trigger is serving life imprisonment and has been repetitively denied parole. He was not following Bill Ayers' orders, as there was no "dictator" in the group.

They were not more than happy to kill anyone. Watch the movie!!! Immerse yourselves in their shoes, and try to interpret what they did within the context of when they did it.

If you actually read my first statement, you would see that I would be appreciative of those who attempted to assassinate Hitler. His own men tried. The guards at the prisons WERE following orders.

We may not agree after you watch the movie, but, watch what I posted, and you will see a different view.

"Their intention was never to kill anyone. It happened."

It's called "Depraved Indifference Murder" if you murder someone while committing a crime even if you didn't intend to. When bombing government buildings it is reasonably foreseeable that a person could die. As such, it is murder. He was the founder and leader of this terrorist organization, so he is just as responsible for their actions as bin Laden is for al Quaeda's actions even if he isn't directly giving orders. Terrorist organizations always have a complicated cell structure for the purpose of protecting their leaders. You're just buying into the system because you support left wing terrorism.

I heard it goes even deeper. I seen some video saying how it was Elvis' supposedly dead twin!

I have always wondered about that dead twin. Bit of a convenient story...

I do believe that Oswald was a patsy.

The US government tapped John Lennon's phones, followed him, started deportation procedures, etc. An assassination attempt is not far off.

I watched a great movie called "US vs John Lennon". I put the link to the trailer below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTfyVYqYL90

So your thoughts are "do what I say and no one gets hurt"....wow...can you say terrorist and dictator? How about "fringe" or "dangerous" or "crazy".
I believe in people having their voices heard....but I will never agree with using illegal or violent means to get what you want done or so people pay attention to you.
The "end" does NOT justify the "means". And if you have to think of it as the end justifies the means......then you don't need to be doing it in the first place.

You missed the entire point of this post.

Please watch the movie I posted and then offer some views. While the Weather Undergound truly wanted no harm to come to anyone, some casualties occurred.

But, please, compare those to the things that they were protesting. What the Weather Underground did was the far lesser of two evils. Vietnam and inequality were horrid and deadly.

The Weather Underground had to resport to extreme measures to fight against powers that only responded to and with voilence. And, again, their intention was never to harm anyone.

And what we did in Vietnam was highly illegal, highly violent, and highly profitable.

I watched the video. I still don't see them as even "good people" or "misguided". If you don't like what your government is doing then you go about changing it legally. Not illegally. I mean come on...they admit to robbing banks and doing other illegal acts. They MURDERED. They were criminals and terrorists...they can dress up in a "cause" if they want...but once you resort to illegal and violent acts your "message" or "cause" is dead. It does not matter anymore..you are as bad as the people you are fighting against. Two wrongs don't make a right. YOu can't justify what they did.
Want to see a "hero"? Look at poeple who brought about change WITHOUT resorting to violance or illegal acts...like Ghondi or King. They saw an injustice and they fought it. Legally and non violently. They did not rob or steal or blow up building or kill people. Even when the other side got ugly with them.
I mean come on...they came out and actually "declared war" on their own country. They were terrorists. They were criminals.
Sorry we won't agree on this one. I don't and won't condone this kind of behavior. I won't see them as heros or even decent people.

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