Do you think we are losing our ability to "think critically?"
@Perspectives (7131)
Canada
November 9, 2008 5:30pm CST
Hello again,
Before going into this discussion I would like to thank the many contributors who shared their views and feelings about the U.S. election. Each of you added much to the discussion and I value the opportunity to read about your various "perspectives."
As I read each one carefully I began to wonder if "we" as people are beginning to lose our ability to really think critically about the issues that face everyone on this planet. To start things off I have included a quotation by
William Graham Sumner. He, in a concise way, states what critical thinking involves and here it is:
[b]The critical habit of thought, if usual in society, will pervade all its mores, because it is a way of taking up the problems of life. Men and women educated in it cannot be stampeded by stump orators ... They are slow to believe. They can hold things as possible or probable in all degrees, without certainty and without pain. They can wait for evidence and weigh evidence, uninfluenced by the emphasis or confidence with which assertions are made on one side or the other. They can resist appeals to their dearest prejudices and all kinds of cajolery. Education in the critical faculty is the only education of which it can be truly said that it makes good citizens.
[/b][i][/i]
If we use the above explanation about "critical habits of thought" as a foundation for this discussion it could make for some interesting dialog. In my view the past administration in the U.S. and the problems and possibilities of the new one will be facing has, and will, continue to call everyone across the planet to put our thinkers on.
With the multitude of global issues we ALL need to be concerned about it is my sincere hope that we will use Mr. Sumner's guidelines as a foundation for our problem solving. As he said those who have the ability to "think critically" cannot be STAMPEDED by stump orators...particularly those who spew radical, unfounded ideas that create fear, hate and polarity within society.as quoted above.
I feel safe in saying that most of us want to work together to create a safer, cleaner, healthier and more abundant world for our children and grandchildren...and those of who are alive right now. In my view in order to do that successfully we will all need to 'get over ourselves" and try to gather information from a variety of sources so we will be able to consider the cause and effect of our choices. From what many of us are seeing and reading it appears that we live among those (to quote Mr. Sumner again:) who CANNOT or WILL NOT resist appeals to their deeper prejudices and all kinds of cajolery.
As I have been listening and reading about some people's beliefs about Barack Obama, his terrorist leanings and the dire predictions some have about what will happen under his leadership I cannot help but wonder where people are getting their information from and how developed their "critical thinking skills" actually are.
It goes beyond the political arena and into all walks of life. Whenever I read the changing information from everything from the medical community and pharmaceutical "research", radical polarization within politics and religion, right down to everyday conflicts with family, friends and coworkers in our life coaching business it is increasingly apparent that many of us are inundated with misinformation disguised as facts.
Being that my philosophy involves a deep concern for the human rights of all people I strongly believe that each of us have the right to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances...and to base their choices accordingly. Having said that none of us can choose wisely without an ability to: wait for evidence and weigh evidence, uninfluenced by the emphasis or confidence with which assertions are made on one side or the other...[b]
When I did a little homework on other people's ideas about critical thinking I came to see that in large and small arenas every day people seem to be "parroting" ideas without going outside their comfort zone to see whether what they are saying is grounded in truth rather than fallacy and fantasy.
[i][/i]
In a nutshell...when you observe your political leaders, entertainment icons, newspaper reporters, talk show hosts...is it your view that they "think critically" or are they biased? Do you question when ideas others present seem unfounded/ungrounded in fact or just accept them? Are you willing to "think outside the box" and or move beyond your comfort zone of ideas...for the purpose of broadening your views? Just a few perspectives to ponder and whatever you care to offer is always appreciated. On many occasions dialogs here end up in an "agree to disagree" summation and that works for me.
So here it is...another discussion that will require us to put our thinking caps on.
Each of you certainly does that for me and I deeply appreciate the way you honor my request to offer our exchanges within a spirit of respectful dialog. I leave you with a thought that I endeavor to live by in my daily interactions with others both on and off line. It is a something Robert Frost said and I think it is an appropriate way to close this discussion on critical thinking:
[b]Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper...or your self-confidence.
[/b]
Thanks in advance for your on-going participation here. You make this site what it is...sharing Perspectives!
Raia
5 people like this
15 responses
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
10 Nov 08
John Lennon thought of this long before you... lol
With his song "Imagine".
I will keep it short and sweet...
Because I said it all before.
1) Education is everything.
2) You still need the brain to process, analyse and use what you have learned. School does not stop at 18. You supposed to learn until the day you die.
3) Most people live in their own little world... oblivious to everything going on around them... much less in the world. I am the extreme opposite.
4) People pick on subjects which are obvious and simple... like all paedophiles should die. But nobody ever stop to question why those people became paedophiles in order to learn how to cure and fix the problem.
And it is pretty much the same with everything.
We don't want to fix anything.
Our solution to everything... is to punish people for doing what we perceive to be wrong... but it is only wrong because it is not something that we would do.
If someone buys a V8 Ford Mustang... the idea of speeding seem quite natural to him. But the law will punish him severely if he gets caught. And the community will back up the law on this... because they have been brainwash for 20 years in believing that speed kills. When in fact... speed has nothing to do with it. It is the bad driver which kills when he lose control of his car. Wether you hit a pedestrian at 20 miles per hour or at 60 miles per hour... he will die. Because the human body has no resistance to any impact... even at 1 mile per hour.
But in order to understand all this... you need to know how to process various information. And if you don't know how to use your brain... you take the easy way out and believe what the law and the government tells you. Most people today have been conditioned by their government to do what they are told and not question anything.
Cheers
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
11 Nov 08
It has been said that the way to make an enemy is to try and change someone.
That is a fact. Works everytime... and is the major cause of divorces.
In order to change... you need to want to change in the first place.
And why would you want to change?
You would first need to accept that there is something wrong with you.
If anyone tells you that there is something wrong with you... your natural instinct is to tell that person to go and jump in the lake.
It is only when you sit down... and start to ask the hard questions...
"Why is my life going to hell?"
You start thinking and analysing... it does take practice and you won't get the solution in one evening. Usually... each answer will demand another question... but eventually... perhaps months... or even 2 or 3 years down the track... you will see the light and everything will start making sense.
You will understand where you went wrong... and why other people in your life did what they did.
By simply understanding it all... you will have already changed.
If you came this far... in understanding it all... you will be smart enough not to repeat your mistakes of the past. And that is making you a wise person.
3 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hi Aussies...
Ah yes, people often resist having a mirror held up to them by anyone else...especially when they do not like the image it reflects. The irony of life though is we often need others to be a mirror or we continue to motor along in our individual groves until something...or someone stops us in our tracks. Preemptive thinking is something that often comes AFTER the bottom falls out of our comfort zone and we are forced to reevaluate.
I also appreciated your views about the dynamics of self-change...and personal growth. It is certainly not a process for the faint of heart and probably the reason many stay in the same groove their whole lives. Safe, comfortable and predictable seems to work for large numbers of people. It has never been the way I lived a lot of my life...but after the number of health, personal and financial challenges David and I transformed the past few years we are enjoying the sense of "blooming where we are planted."
Being able to live within one's means keeps life simpler and more focused...and that is why we appreciate how you have chosen to live...on your own terms.
The process your described is akin to peeling the layers of an onion back until "things make more sense." Whatever anyone decides to do...the choices are theirs to make.
From many of our chats I think that in the grand scheme of things there are some people who make things happen, those who watch things happen...and those who don't have a clue what the heck is happening! (smiles)
I am enjoying having time to share our views again..and we will be in touch.
So long for now,
Raia
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Well I didn't think of this...but I do enjoy the ideas behind it...and John Lennon's song...one of my favorites.
What you have underscored as the foundation for critical thinking fits right in with my view of things...especially the part about lifelong education. Without that people's perceptions definitely shrinks and then they cannot see beyond the limitations of their comfortable little "box." It has been said that the way to make an enemy is to try and change someone. That certainly applies with the examples you cited of narrow minded, judgmental thinkers.
The other things you presented are definitely illustrate areas where critical thinking is non-existent.
It would appear that you...and the next poster Winter08 have similar views about people being conditioned and not questioning anything. In a nutshell I think a quote by Dr. Robert Anthony..."Most people don't THINK...(or process information as you pointed out)...they merely rearrange their prejudices." I have seen a lot of that within the very lengthy discussions I have had with one poster on the election discussion. Never really answers any of my pointed questions...just rearranges his prejudices again, and again...and again.
Yes, Mylot does allow us to read about a wide variety of mindsets. Some think critically...and others continue to see life as the mirror it is...reflecting back whatever image they choose to present to it.
Another interesting addition Aussies..thanks friend.
Raia[b][/b]
1 person likes this
@Winter08 (441)
• Canada
10 Nov 08
"Do you think we are losing our ability to think critically?"
No one can lose what they have not had.
As a previous poster stated, education should continue after we leave the formal education system (if we live in a country that has one). And, typically, the formal education system (at least from my experience with it) does not lend itself to creating critical thinkers. Usually, we are taught from a very young age to "comply" with the instructions as laid out by the various authority figures in our young lives. Rarely are children encouraged to think for themselves. And those who stand out as being different, as being not the norm, may have to endure unpleastant responses to their differentness.
So where do we learn criticaly thinking? I would say from our life experiences --- unless someone "lucked" into having a great teacher/instructor/professor at some point in their formal education process. And many peoples life experiences are filled with hectic and stressfilled events as they are trying to support themselves and their families that continuing to educate themselves in a thinking manner is not always possible.
So before we can lose the ability to think critically we need to develope that ability first. And I think once we have that ability, we do not lose it. It may go into temporary hiding when we allow our fears to swamp our it. But it is still there within us.
@Aussies2007 (5336)
• Australia
11 Nov 08
The educational system actually did change since my days... circa 60's.
And even more so since we have the internet.
In my days... you learned everything from a book.
You had one book for every subject like geography and history.
And you used the same book for one year.
Today I would read that book in one or two evenings... and understand it all.
Which goes to prove the point that adults are far smarter than teenagers... lol
But yes... kids today are encouraged to use their brain.
By the age of 12... or even before... rather than taking their information from a book... they are asked to find the book with the information. They call it "research". In the old days... you did not do that until you went to University.
I did not start doing my critical thinking until I was in my 40's.
And the reason it started... was that I decided to bail out of the rat race... and I suddenly did find myself with some spare time... to sit down and think.
People simply don't have the time to stop and think.
They are exhausted from working in order to pay the bills.
If they took the time to stop and think... they would reduce their bills... so that they would not have to work so hard.
Your critical thinking start with doing some reading... not fictional reading... but the real thing. I read stuff about people, nature, technology, space... ect.
When you do a lot of reading... you eventually comes across the same subject several times... written by different people with a different spin on it.
That is when the analysing began. You compare the documents in search for the truth... and it is there to be found. But no-one can see it without analysing it. That is how the government fools everyone. It is written in a deceptive manner so as to hide the truth. But you cannot accuse anyone of lying... because it is there... even so you don't see it. lol
This make the world full of contradictions... with people saying two different things at the same time... because they are confused about what they read.
2 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Aussies...I hope Winter 08 will come back and participate in this thread about education. I agree with what you are saying about the challenges people are facing in their everyday lives. Maslov's basic laws about survival observed that people cannot move into higher states of consciousness when concerned about food, water, shelter and how to provide for their families.
The fact that you figured that out and changed your lifestyle and reduced your expenses is something David and I did as well. Agreeably it has allowed us to focus on more of what really matters in life. Being caught up in "more, more, more" mentality that drives people everywhere is something we no longer do either. Whether it is material purchases, creative pursuits, personal and professional projects or the "busy-ness" syndrome...all of it can cram life so full of outwardly directed activities that there is no time for quiet introspection...or educational development.
It has been said that the rewards in life go to those who are willing to give up the past and create something different. From what you have said you have done that...but it took a fair amount of critical thinking and weighing options to do it.
I guess we have to reach a point of discontent with the way things "WERE" to open ourselves to the possibilities of what might "BE." in the work we do all too often we see people who would rather be "right" than take whatever steps are needed to be happy. Choices...ah yes, back to that again. (smiles)
Raia
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hello Winter08..good to have your input again. I have been away from Mylot for awhile and these past two discussions have inspired me to show up more often. When I read interesting and well presented ideas like yours and others I am reminded why I enjoy being here.
I like the way you presented the idea that many have never been trained to think critically and therefore cannot lose what they never had. Very interesting and quite true.
Your points about the need to comply with the authority figures in our lives is a tough pattern to break. Yes, children are almost brainwashed into mindsets that they inherit from others. It is also true that the need to fit in, be accepted overrides what often is an "innate knowing" that something doesn't feel right. Yes, it is hard to trust one's perceptions when they do not mesh with everyone else.
Having the courage to think outside the box is definitely not for the faint of heart...but when one can do it we often discover that our observations combined with action leads to transformation. At least that has been my experience.
I appreciate your responses and respect the way you think.
Raia
1 person likes this
@Polly1 (12645)
• United States
10 Nov 08
Dearest Raia, As always, if you want to respond to one of your post, its time to put your thinking caps on and think outside the box. I just went back to your previous discussion about the election. I read some and skimmed thru some. Lots of good responses. Some points of view that caught my eye: that Obama was elected because of his race. I differ with that, I think he was elected primarily on his views and the issues facing us. Sure, some voted because he is black, but I believe that for the majority of people who voted for him, race had nothing to do with who got their vote. Also there has been talk about him being a Muslim, like you said he has lived as a Christian, went to a Christian church, has been raising his children in a Christian church. Anyway, so what if he happened to be a Muslim, that doesn't automatically make him bad. There are many Muslims that happen to be good people, sure some are bad. But then some so called Christians are bad people too. What happened to Freedom of Religion, freedom to believe they way you want. Muslims believe in God, sure they might have other beliefs that differ from Christians. Jewish people believe in God, they also have other beliefs that differ from Christians. Who says, who has the "right" belief. We have to look within our hearts and know what "belief" is the right way to believe. It doesn't matter if what I believe is what someone else believes. I do my best not to judge others for their beliefs. They usually believe what they were taught, what they grew up being told. Thats fine with me. I hope I am making sense to you. you did it again. Made my brain work, hehe. There is just way too much hatred and fighting going on in this world. It really does need to stop. There has been lots of things passed around on the internet about Obama, his beliefs, what he has done or not done. I am proud to say that I did not pass on any of those kinds of things. I deleted them. As far as I know, Obama is a good man, I was not going to be a part of spreading vicious rumors about him. Who says those kinds of things are the truth. I can joke and say my avatar is a "real" picture of me. My avatar actually says "Don't believe everything you think". I think I will end this that way. Thats my "Perspective" on lots of stuff, "Don't believe everything you think".
3 people like this
@Polly1 (12645)
• United States
11 Nov 08
Its an honor for me to, to have you for a friend. I also wish we lived closer, I feel we would be great friends. I will always be thankful for finding mylot, I have met such terrific people here. The friendships, the people I have met, all of you have enriched my life.
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@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Nov 08
Yes, this is a special community filled with a lot of unique, caring, compassionate people...and you are among them.
It is great to be back in touch with you Polly and now that winter is here I hope to be able to visit here more.
As always, big hugs and the best regards.
Raia
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hello dear one...always a pleasure to have your here with your thinking cap on! It is so good to have valued, loyal friends like you who continually show up and bring such thoughtful views to the table...as you always do.
I have always respected your loving, fair-minded approach when offering your perspective on things. You always come through as an honoring, loving person who respects differences...and that is something I admire immensely. In my view it is a good example of Mr. Sumner's ideas on critical thinking. You listen with an open mind to what is possible...and/or probable while quietly holding your own center.
As you wisely said Polly..."Who says, who has the "right" belief. We have to look within our hearts and know what "belief" is the right way to believe. It doesn't matter if what I believe is what someone else believes. I do my best not to judge others for their beliefs. [b][/b][i][/i]
Your comments about people "believing what they are taught' echos my understanding of things as well. None of us can change something until we become aware of it...and many who are taught a certain way never question the validity of those teachings...they just adopt them as their own. That is why your Avatar makes such good sense! Yes, it is a delightful way of reminding us to develop the habit of critical thinking.
David and I encourage all our clients to...question, question question. Themselves, their beliefs..and anyone else what seems to be imparting half baked truths. We both do a lot of navel gazing and mirroring to each other...and the small circle of friends we have are excellent refecting things back to us as well. Being that we love and trust them...and respect their views we are open to everything they have to say...whether we agree or not.
I think problems arise when people only surround themselves with those who have the same mindsets. That is why Mylot is such a great place. We share ideas about a lot of things and encourage each other to tilt the kaleidoscope and to "see" things a little differently.
So Polly I would say we share very similar views once again. And yes, I totally understand where you are coming from. I appreciate you and how you think. It is an honor to have you as a Cyber gal-pal. As I have said often before I wish we lived closer so we could have a cuppa and continue this lovely chat in person.
Big hugs and warm, caring regards,
Raia
1 person likes this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
10 Nov 08
Oh Boy ya did it again!
FOr me this past election was too one sided.
and from the first I saw this man that is to be our next president I didnt care for him from the first! a very slick talker and so many people listened to him hope he will make a mirical adn make every thing ok and when HE dosent they will turn on him.
Bush stole his election by alot of votes got lost and those others had to be recounted for they said that the punch thing didnt work properly.
hmmmmmmmmm and all in Florida where his brother was in charge.
All our presidents have been handed a full plate to try and make things better for every one and each one of they have added to that plate to hand to the next one.
Now the hole is dug real deep dont know if any one could dig us out.
WE have tothink of the greed of men that put us where we are today. The congress got so greedy they forgot the people! an do what they want with the country. as a people we do need to keep them in line.
Wehn we see something we dont like need to write our congress people and tel them in mass . So they pay attetion to the people and mot just thier own plans!
hugs and blessings!
2 people like this
@Lakota12 (42600)
• United States
10 Nov 08
Well after reading above me I think I have missed the point lol.
ANd as for the3 one that watched Helter Skelter maybe she needs to point out that Chrles MAnson just orcrastaed the killing of Sharon Tate and friend as he was back in the compound and never really took part in it. was just orders these kids followed that he had brain washed them into doing!.
WE have found that now before kids go to kindergarden they have to know some reading and als some msth nowI want to know what the teachers are for in kidergarden than to teach the childern all of these things!
But from the time kids are born we need to teach them to use thier own judgement on thinking and if its wrong sort of point them the right way but also keep theri being their own person!
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@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hi again,
Keeping updated on these last two discussions is keeping me busy. The thoughtful responses you and others present get my "thinker" going too. We certainly have some great exchanges and I enjoy being back and participating once again.
I appreciate your "critical thinking" perspectives as you weighed the pro and cons of the various administrations and how they often leader do not honor their commitments to the people...and walk their talk.
I do not envy those who chose politics as their career path. So much within the system makes it difficult for them to work for the greatest good of the all because a lot of them have different agendas.
Your comments about their greed over-ridding the needs of the people is sad, but true.
I also agree with you that THEY cannot do it FOR us...even as they often do it TO us if we are not vigilant and unite or voices when they take us down paths we do not want to go. The point you present about presenting things in a united voice is a good one. It does get their attention alright. One time our leaders were planning to reduce old age security benefits...wow...did that bring "gray power" out in droves. The government dropped that idea in a BIG hurry. I think that is the really good thing about the outcome of this election...even if people do not like Barack. The American people showed what can be done when they work together. That spirit is what has always made America the great country is was...and still is.
I sincerely hope people will continue to do just that to make sure this incoming administration is held more accountable than the last one was.
Your comments about raising children to think and ask questions is probably why your children...and now Chey are able to stand up for what they believe...including fighting for their country. You are a great role model...and they are lucky to have you as someone who has the courage to live life on her own terms.
A little extra note on this topic. If you check my activity log you will see where I responded to a discussion on strong women. I gave you big kudos there as a women of strength that I know, love and respect immensely. I didn't think you would mind being that you opening discussed your healing journey with members here.
I have to sign off shortly...but I will be back to continue catching up with responses here and then hopefully have some time to drop around to your site and others in the next few days.
Luv ya!
Raia
2 people like this
@zigzagbuddha (4601)
• United States
10 Nov 08
Whoever William Graham Sumner is, I like the way he thinks! Too bad he wasn't running for president, I might have gone out and voted for him. The truth of the matter is, I am an anarchist. I'm more interested in running my own private circus then watching some dog and pony show.
I do not read newspapers or watch TV, but if I did I would be VERY selective about what I read or watched because some of that stuff is so insidious. How I feel is too important to me to leave to the mercy of reporters and talk show hosts. I would decide how I wanted to feel and then I would select programs that matched that. Fortunately I do not have any desire to feel 'informed', because man what a load of sh!t you have to go through in the name of that god! 
3 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Well there you are...I have thinking about you and wondering how things are going. We need to chat by e-mail and update each other. Expect to hear from me in the next few days. Miss our banter buddy!
Anyway, glad to have you here as always. I like the way Mr. Sumner thinks as well. I was looking for a "hook" for this discussion and thought his definition fit with where I wanted to go with it.
From our various chats here an by e-mail I have always appreciated your ability to stand in the resonance of your own power and speak your truth accordingly. As was noted by the two responses before mine...some agree with you...others do not. Ah yes, the joy of discussion forums.
Whatever you are doing it is working for you...and that is the most important thing for all of us to figure out. In my view you are a "critical thinker" and certainly are not afraid to challenge anything that does not make sense and I love that about you! You go girl!
Raia
1 person likes this
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
15 Nov 08
It seems to me that the major problem with all the political philosophies, democracy, socialism, anarchism, is that to work in the way they are designed requires precisely what we are talking about, critical thinking. And it would seem that the bulk of peole are not, for one reason or another, capable of doing so, and instead fall back on human nature and take the line o least resistance - which means uncritically believeing what they're told by their governments (and others).
It is easy to put this down to some combination of apathy, ignorance, self-absorption or even lack of intelligence, and while I believe these things probably do apply to some of the uncritical thinkers, I suspect that most of them are that way from lack of adequate education, be that in social and political issues or in critical thinking itself.
Lash
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@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
21 Nov 08
Greetings Lash and thank you for participating in this discussion. I value your views on this topic and the way you have presented them. It is true that many today either are not or have not been schooled to consider weighing the facts. It seems there is a lot of "sheep mentality" to varying degrees within all areas of society.
It is rather amazing to me how little the media sorts through the information they print. Many appear to run with a story rather than verifying whether it is based in fact or not.
In my work as a talk show host/producer and free lance writer one of my mentors would not run with any news piece unless I could verify my sources of information and to present both sides of any issue in a neutral, non-partisan way. His way of thinking and reporting helped my critical thinking skills immensely in both my personal and professional lives.
Unfortunately, as you wisely observed many today are not raised to think outside the box and source out information before forming their opinions.
Most enjoyable addition...thanks for posting it.
Raia
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
14 Nov 08
On the face of it this makes sense, but I would like to raise some objections to it.
You are, I assume, talking about the difference between choosing options/making judgements by either logical thinking or by emotive thinking, although I wonder if you actually consider "emotive thinking" to be an oxymoron. I follow the Jungian theory of psychological type which states that both forms of thinking are perfectly valid; the one considers only rational reason, and the other considers values and meaning. In reality, none of us are strictly one or the other, we use both methods, but with a preference for one over the other.
You valourise critical thinking (instrumental logic, I would call it). That is all very well, and certainly I use logical rational thinking to check the decisions my emotive, value-based thinking comes up with. And I would certainly never claim that rationalists don't have values in whose service they do their rational thinking.
But if you accept that both kinds of thinking, in a balanced personality, are valid, then the problems you are addressing come down not to the way people think but to the balance, intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge they bring to the equation, plus, most importanly of all, their ability to think, in either paradigm, flexibly.
Many religious fundamentalists, for example will evince a fine grasp of critical thinking, but their religious fanaticism means they do not have the flexibility of mind to come up with valid answers. The same could apply to political or economic fundamentalists. The crucial issue is the flexibility to look at opposing views with an open mind.
Lash
2 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
21 Nov 08
Hello again,
I appreciate your objections and your views on the various aspects of how people gather knowledge and form their belief systems. Within human nature we unarguably respond in different ways at different times to whatever life presents to us.
In the posting of this discussion I was not suggesting that "instrumental logic" as you refer to it is preferable to emotive, value based thinking. Where in the context of the discussion did I indicate that rationalists do not (to quote you)" [b]"have values in whose service they do their rational thinking?"
[/b][i][/i]
If we were having a discussion on "balanced personalities" then I could see where not addressing the importance of emotive thinking, intuitive knowing, or synergy within the grand scheme of life applies.
This discussion was asking whether contributors thought that we, as a society are losing the ability to think critically...not the philosophical aspects of whether right/left brain thinking or instrumental logic/emotive thinking is preferable. From my perspective...that is a whole other discussion and one that you might be interested in posting on your site.
The one thing we do agree on is your closing statement...yes, the crucial issue is the flexibility to look at opposing views with an open mind. '
Raia
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
21 Nov 08
Hi again...
Thanks for coming back and clarifying that...and for accepting my friend request. I really enjoy the kinds of discussions we have here and feel very fortunate to have a number of people who feel the same way. I chose the site name because my writing company is called Perspectives on Healthy Living. I have used "perspectives" in much of my media experience including a television show I produced and hosted a number of years ago. The members who willingly give such thoughtful responses while sharing their unique perspectives is what makes this site what it is.
As you commented Lash the threads can be lengthy and in-depth...but usually thought provoking with the diversity of the viewpoints. Most who drop by offer their ideas within a spirit of "respectful dialog"...even when there are disagreements. I have found a lot of critical, flexible thinkers on Mylot and it is what keeps me coming back.
I look forward to more chats with you and I for one am really happy that you became a member...and a new friend.
Cheers,
Raia
@grandpa_lash (5225)
• Australia
21 Nov 08
Jungian theory is not well understood by many, and those qualifiers I put in weren't actually in response to anything you said, they were simply meant to explain the two sides of the argument more fully to anyone who isn't familiar with his ideas.
I discovered, in trying to answer your last post, that I may have misinterpreted what you actually mean by critical thinking, and in fact my point about flexibilty in thinking is not too far off what you meant; we are losing the ability to think flexibly, which in effect mneans being unable to put our own biases to the test.
Lash
1 person likes this
@kalav56 (11464)
• India
12 Nov 08
First of all I feel that it is more a case of people not being willing to think critically [especially in the group of educated classes]
They have not really lost it but are not inclined to. Even in the case of the general masses it is a case of not wanting to do something for a few reasons
1. People are not patient enough to gather all facts and then pass unbiased judgments.
2 People do not have the time for such in-depth analysis and impartial observations.
Moreover in many cases is a case of people ‘hear what they want to hear’.
3. There is always the element of subjectivity and looking at it from the narrow selfish point of view primarily, because by nature man is very self-centered and tends to protest and scream loud only when he himself or his immediate surrounding is affected...
4. Working on misinformation as facts is the common foible of man as such. And because not all people have the patience to get into a deep understanding of any subject and would like to pass judgments on hearsay alone.
5Last of all there is the attitude of passive resignation from a multitude of people.
6. After all, what can I as a speck in the Universe do to alter things? Ill get on with my life. What cannot be cured must be endured.-[This of course is in the case of people who are always uninterested]--I feel that even this attitude is better than the voicing of opinions that are not grounded in facts.
7. Regarding this being ‘for ‘or ‘against ‘Obama, once again I feel that this may have also sprung from a bit of subjectivity due to misguided patriotism, clinging to community and prejudices and also an innate feeling of threat to security of self. This is the nature of many people because they lack maturity and are victims of inbuilt prejudices. This cannot be helped because we are all imperfect human beings.
For your final question, .when you observe your political leaders, entertainment icons, newspaper reporters, talk show hosts...is it your view that they "think critically" or are they biased? Do you question when ideas others present seem unfounded/ungrounded in fact or just accept them? Are you willing to "think outside the box" and or move beyond your comfort zone of ideas...for the purpose of broadening your views?
I just watch this with a passive mind and even when I can see outright bias and prejudice and am aware of it I express my opinion at home and laugh it away. That is all. I do not know much about the politics in my own country but I do get into discussions with my husband because ultimately it is all a reflection of human behavior and I just pick lessons from people of all kinds. I just find it interesting to observe how people can behave and how many common statements are made by those who are up on stage, politically presenting facts and trying to influence people. But because my knowledge in this sphere is terribly limited, I am just an impartial observer in many cases. I do not have the inclination to get deeply into all this .So, in a way I do not come out of my comfort zone and break my head over things that cannot be changed. I am willing to ‘think outside the box’ and would say things that comes to my mind in a given situation just within home .That is all. I would never discuss this outside because many people [I find ] tend to get worked up over all this and I do not like heated discussions on topics where I can do nothing about. Why argue?
1 person likes this
@kalav56 (11464)
• India
12 Nov 08
I wholeheartedly agree with Frost's statement-why lose my temper with another person over something that is happening out in the world?
If I do not agree then so be it.I am neither willing to change another person's opinion or have mine changed.Each to one's own.
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@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
14 Nov 08
Hello my dear friend and soul sister...it is, as always a delight to hear from you. I was grateful to receive your lovely e-mail and will respond this weekend. David and I are busy developing our webpage and keeping doing life coaching our clients. We will also be starting to present our workshops again in the New Year..so livelihood demands are requiring me to juggle my time. But as you know we ...whether it is in our regular livelihood...or on Mylot...sharing ideas is who we are and what we do.
Your views on critical thinking are, as always thoughtful, well written and interesting. I was particularly struck with your statement: "There is always the element of subjectivity and looking at it from the narrow selfish point of view primarily, because by nature man is very self-centered and tends to protest and scream loud only when he himself or his immediate surrounding is affected... 4. Working on misinformation as facts is the common foible of man as such."[b][/b] [i][/i]Big thumbs up in agreement! 
I also applaud your laid back approach as you move into your "Observer Mode" in some areas of your life and interactions with others. Yes, Kala, sometimes it is definitely not worth the time, energy and aggravation it takes to share ideas with those who have already made up their minds.
Your "wise woman" approach to keeping your own counsel during heated discussions that you cannot do anything about is the approach I have learned to take these days. Although I must admit I used to invest a lot more energy in polarizing discussions than I am prepared to do now. As you said...Why argue? Of the loud clunk we hear is the sound of minds closing. Arguing past that point is a a fruitless exercise...so we are in total agreement on this.
Thank you again for adding your views and experiences to this topic. I think of you so often and treasure the bond we have. My friend...(you know who) and I are attending a 'women in business" seminar on Saturday and David and I have appointments all day tomorrow. I will be back to my desk on Sunday and the beginning of the week and will touch in with you when I return.
Warm, caring regards and a wish for bright blessings for you and yours. David same up to my office as I am signing off and sends his best wishes to you as well.
Raia
I also applaud your laid back approach as you move into your "Observer Mode" in some areas of your life and interactions with others. Yes, Kala, sometimes it is definitely not worth the time, energy and aggravation it takes to share ideas with those who have already made up their minds.
Your "wise woman" approach to keeping your own counsel during heated discussions that you cannot do anything about is the approach I have learned to take these days. Although I must admit I used to invest a lot more energy in polarizing discussions than I am prepared to do now. As you said...Why argue? Of the loud clunk we hear is the sound of minds closing. Arguing past that point is a a fruitless exercise...so we are in total agreement on this.
Thank you again for adding your views and experiences to this topic. I think of you so often and treasure the bond we have. My friend...(you know who) and I are attending a 'women in business" seminar on Saturday and David and I have appointments all day tomorrow. I will be back to my desk on Sunday and the beginning of the week and will touch in with you when I return.
Warm, caring regards and a wish for bright blessings for you and yours. David same up to my office as I am signing off and sends his best wishes to you as well.
Raia
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
10 Nov 08
This last election was won because people did not use their critical thinking facility. The media elected Obama to a demigod, note I did not say demogue, but a demigod. They also disparaged Sarah Palin, so that on one side, he could do no wrong, and in the other, she could do no right and even when Fox said something bad about one of her decisions, then the far left media said aha! And those people devoid of critical thinking fell for it because they had lost that ability. It was won because people failed to investigate, failed to see the truth about the candidates and for many it was the color of the candidate's skin or his suppose race rather than the issues that mattered.
2 people like this
@suspenseful (40193)
• Canada
22 Nov 08
When I partake in an election (I am a Canadian so with me it was our former election and I did not vote for the main candidates because they did not have the same moral view as I did) I check to see what the candidate's background is and if I were an American, that would mean I could not vote for Obama, a man who is so pro abortion and pro same gender that it is past what the Clintons were. I also did not think that McCain was as strong a Republican as I would like and it was only Sarah Palin who gave him emphasis. I also did not think it was right for the media to get all behind Obama and not criticize him and yet say bad things about Palin. I think that we can also want the best for our children, but we cannot have it at the expense of future generations. And we have to learn what happened in the past. The idea of a civilian force that Obama has in mind reminds me of the Hitler Youth. I also believe that God is in control, and it is HIS law, the Ten Commandments we have to follow, and not make laws to suit the circumstances. That would be wrong.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
25 Nov 08
Hello again...fellow Canadian.
You have eloquently stated parts of your religious views in other discussions and I respect them. You have every right to vote according to what you believe to be true for you. That is what many Americans did. They wanted a change, they exercised their right of free will to vote for it...and they got it. Whether others like the outcome or not. Change happened and only time will tell whether the changes are for the betterment of America or not.
Having responded to that this is a discussion on critical thinking and I am not sure why we are still discussing the outcome of the election. That is a different discussion.
Being that you commented on the election again I will go with it. I need to ask you...are you suggesting that those who voted for Barck Obama lacked critical thinking skills because they did not vote according to the ten commandments? Many would think that subscribing to any doctrine from ANY religion without bringing in the cause and effect of the choice making of their leaders would reveal a lack [i][/i][u][/u]of critical thinking.
For example George Bush claimed to be a Christian...but has started a war under false pretenses. People were tortured without anyone every being brought to trial...is that following the ten commandments? I could give numerous other examples about the lack of critical thinking for those within the old administration and all who voted them in for two terms but from what you have offered here it is probably of no interest to you so I won't bother.
I have no idea what you mean in referencing Obama and your claim that there is a parallel to Hitler Youth. What does that mean? Those who voice opinions without being able to back them up with substantive factual references are, in my view the polar opposite of what critical thinking actually is. The ability to source out diverse facts that referenced back to something other than a perception based on unfounded information. Sorry, I don't buy into that...although I respect the rights of those who operate with those mindsets.
We share perspectives here...I am not preaching anything to anyone. I will read whatever anyone chooses to contribute...but my opinions are based on something more than those who have personal agendas and/or polarizing, radical views within their belief systems. To each their own.
Raia
@roniroxas (10560)
• Philippines
10 Nov 08
hi my shrek loving friend. i have a different avatar and i used my children's picture but they are much younger on that picture. i am glad to see you again here at mylot, i didnt response on your last discussion for i am just waiting what will happen with the obama government. the philippines (and a lot of country all over the world) has all eyes on Mr. Obama. in my part i am hoping and praying for a better president for who ever will be USA president the whole world will benefit. i am just watching and observing but reading and listening to the news. every one of us needs to be given a chance. and in the case of Mr. Obama people needs to give him a chance to prove his worth. For me who ever won at the election needs to be given a chance. let us all sit back and let him do his work. with your discussion regarding thinking critically i can say that people really loves gossip. loves to read news and just believe in that. maybe we are so busy with our own lives and own problems that we no longer think critically on other topics but just focus on our owm problems. i agree with what Robert Frost said if you want to be educated you need to listen and you need to learn how to absorb what you hear. you also need to balance things on what you hear is it the truth or not. leanr to do a research. well i will still seat and watch and observe and at the same time pray for a good office for Mr. Obama.
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hi there friend...how great to be back in touch with you. I love your new Avatar...with you and your special angels in a circle of love. Very special to see. I hope everything is going well for you and all your loved ones.
Even when we are out of touch for awhile you and your family remain in my thoughts and prayers. David and I are doing well and our gathering was a wonderful event. We had our first snowfall and David had to dig the car out today. Other than that we are settling in for the winter ahead and hopefully will be less busy than we are during the first six months of the year. I look forward to spending more time in Mylot Land and keeping in touch with special gal-pals like you.
Anyway, enough with the updates and on to the discussion. I appreciate your wait and see approach to the U.S. election. I think it is a sensible way to view it. None of us can predict what kind of a President he will be...and I love your honoring ideas about giving him a chance! Absolutely...there are some American respondents to the discussion are wallowing in doom and gloom and call him...an Obamamation. What a degrading thing to say about the leader of your country. Oh well...it is their right to think they way they choose...and they they are exercising it.
I appreciate your views on critical thinking and from what I have come to know of you...you certainly are among them. You are right about listening and researching things before making a decision. I am with you on offering prayer support to Mr. Obama...he will need all the support he can get...not only form American citizens...but the rest of us in other countries as well.
Great chatting with you...big huggers coming your way. Also I just noticed your credits...congratulations on heading towards your 5,000th post. Won't take you too much longer because you are such a valued member here. Keep up the great work and I look forward to keeping in touch more.
Raia
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
10 Nov 08
Hi Raia, I believe that more and more people are starting to think outside the box, but when it comes to politics and religion many have always let others do the thinking for them, and therein lies the problem. I like the quote from William Graham Sumner especially the part: education in the critical faculty is the only education of which it can be truly said that it makes good citizens. History has shown that charisma makes good politicians and preachers because they have the ability to convince people by the way they speak and play on their emotions. Still there have always been those that couldn't be stampeded, as you put it, and took the time to think things over for themselves, to sleep on it, as my late father would say. We have reached a time in history when this ability is needed more than ever before if we are to survive as a species. The present financial crisis requires that we put aside partisan politics and pool our intellectual resources. We must not dismiss something outright because it is too liberal or too conservative or even because it smacks of socialism, keep an open mind and weigh everything in the light of the present situation. Lets not judge our leaders before they have a chance to prove themselves but it may be time that we insist that they work together. There is also the even bigger problem of global poverty that we can no longer ignore. The easy way out is to say that it is impossible, that's the attitude that hindered progress in every generation. If the way to peace is to have open dialogue with the enemy lets do it now. We will no doubt discover that we have much more in common than we think, I like the saying,"we have met the enemy and they are us", it holds a lot more truth than we may think. We have made great strides in technology in the past fifty years, yet in our relations with other cultures and religions we seem to be stuck in nineteenth century thinking. We are all members of the same human family with the same basic needs, hopes and dreams. Unfortunately we continue to believe all sorts of untruths about each other because we have never reached out to embrace each other in friendship and we have listened to those to whose advantage it is to keep up from becoming friends. I remain an optimist and refuse to give up on humanity,and although I may not be here to see it reach fruition I remain hopeful that we are on the verge of a new dawn in human relations, the elimination of poverty and world peace. Blessings.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Nov 08
Hello again Pose,
I always enjoy hearing from you and value how your philosophical views about many ideas are akin to mine. I am sure the teaching of Unity and our shared interest in metaphysics contributes to that...and maybe that we are fellow Canadians as well.
Whatever it is I enjoy our exchanges immensely...and have again.
When I read your comments about education and what you enjoyed about Mr. Sumner's ideas on critical thinking I found this quotation that fits as well. Hope you enjoy it...here it is:
The most important function of education at any level is to develop the personalty of the individual and the significance of their life to themselves and others. This is the basic architecture of a life; the rest is ornamentation and decoration of the innate structure.[i][/i]
You have eloquently referenced things that resonate with that theme in what you presented in your post. You are so right that without a reduction in polarized thinking...and a move towards greater acceptance, consensus and global cooperation we could well be doomed a species.
Having said that I hold the same view as you do...that I am not ready to give up on humanity either. As long is there is life and breath we have hope. From our spiritual teachings we both know that we move towards what we picture in our minds. Like you I will continue to hold images of as you wisely said: "A new dawn in human relations, the elimination of poverty and world peace."
As the saying goes, anything we can conceive and believe...we can achieve. I choose to believe we can do it...and will!
Great input...thank for for offering it.
Raia
@littleowl (7157)
•
10 Nov 08
In my own life I am open to all possibilities, and anything that could or is probable..and like to study peoples body language which helps in making a lot of decisions as you can more or less really see the underlying thing they are saying not the face value of it, though sometimes I do fall short of that with those who are so good at hiding things.The one thing I do do is live outside of my 'box' as their is to much you can miss out staying inside that 'box'...fundamentally always being in your comfort 'zone' is not healthy for you either to close your mind to other 'possibilites' etc either.
Listening and counselling others in all sorts of problems upsets etc keeps me more open minded..learning about the wonders in this world...their is so much to find out even that we haven't found out about.
As for observing the above you mention, for politicians at the time they say their policies etc they really mean it and have every intention of hopefully doing some good..but there are always obstacles that stop them doing that..also at the time of saying what they do I feel they may even be lying to themselves. Newspaper reporters know the truth but fabricate on what they see and cause scandal for people concerned and the people who read about it. There is so much more I could add Raia but eill leave it at this...blessings and Hugs littleowl
2 people like this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
Hi again dear friend,
I really enjoyed reading your addition to the discussion. First up each time we chat I discover more about you and it explains that sense of resonance we have felt from our earliest exchanges. I appreciate people like you that have their heart-minds open to others in an honoring, non-judgmental way. You speak your truths in quietness and confidence and it reveals your centered, inner strength.
What you have presented about living outside our "boxes" is so true. We need each other as sounding boards and mirrors. Without that our perception of ourselves and consequently others can, and often does become distorted. I particularly like your observation about politicians and others who "lie to themselves." Yes, it is certainly easy to do when we do not keep our ability to stand back and "think critically" about the information adopt as our own.
In my work as a journalist and talk show hosts I always tried to apply what one of my early mentors taught me. He said that the best reporters were those who could gather a variety of facts from both sides of any topic, present it in an unbiased way and let the reader draw their own conclusions. Unfortunately many in the media today are not trained to present ideas that way and frequently slant things to support their ideas. That is why there is an even greater call for each of us to be increasingly more discerning about whatever they...or anyone else is saying and doing.
I would love to be able to continue this delightful on line conversation in person. But this will have to do for now.
We will keep in touch more...even when I am not here. I am vary pleased you were comfortable in exchanging addresses. Take care and stay warm my friend.
Raia
@se7enthbird (8307)
• Philippines
11 Nov 08
we have to admit there are more people who are afraid of changes. so everytime that they hear about changes or feel that there would be changes people always build a wall between that change. specially when we are acostumed already on what we have and if we are use to do what we do we dont like to welcome change. the problem with people too is that whne the one we are cheering for did not win we sour grape. we no longer want to listen and to watch and all we do is say something bad about the team or the person who won. lets face the reality that there are people who are like that. scared to have a change... for there are two faces of change.... change for the better or change for the worst. and of course we dont like a change for the worst. we lose the ability to think critically when we are tired on hoping for the better. after the shoot up of all the prices, after all the calamity and after all the pain we tend to lose to think critically. i am not from USA nor a person who resides there but i am also tired and afraid of what is happening with the world, lets just have to hope and pray for the better think positive and pray. welcome back my friend, i thought you are no longer a member but very happy indeed to see that you are still around. hope to see you more.
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
12 Nov 08
Hello again my friend,
First up let me say thank your for your very warm welcome back...and your encouraging words. You can rest assured that even when I am away for awhile valued friends like you and others always draws me back. I truly respect the wonderful people here and the thoughtful, intelligent, spiritual discussions we share.
Once again you have dropped by for a visit and added a lot of good ideas on the topic and what often presents people from thinking rationally...and critically. As you pointed out people do resist change...big time!
You are so right when you point out that people lapse into pettiness and "sour grapes" when things do not work out the way they wanted. I loved your comment: "We lose the ability to think critically when we are tired on hoping for the better."[b][/b] [i][/i]. That is a very wise statement... and something people often forget to remember during tough times.
I am a Canadian citizen but live with a belief that all people and everything in life has a spiritual interconnectedness and that there is a ripple effect to all things whether we are aware of it or not. So I am with you that I am hoping and praying for an improvement in the many problems we are facing with our global community. Critical thinking does involve responsible fact finding and choice making and hopefully we all will keep that in mind in the days, weeks and years ahead.
I hope all is well with you and yours...it is good to be back and chatting with you again too.
Warm and caring regards,
Raia
1 person likes this
@Ganesh44 (5547)
• India
25 Nov 08
Hello Perspective
Hope you are doing well....
It is regretful to say that yes we are loosing our ability to thinkg critical.
I think lack of critical thinking in human beings is taking away values like morality ,truth , patience , ability to interpret to root , preservance,humanity ,positive thinking and lot more .
Since most of the human qualities and nature depends upon how critically one thinks and awfully the prevailing atmosphere and trend acts as resitance to think critically .
I want to give an exmaple terrorism and wars , are raised by people who claim to be very critical thinker .But do any critical thinker will feel that humanity needs war and terrorism to address any problem in the world .But they tend to be more critical in public.
Politicians I think do anything to remain in power why not it is not worth doing .Why not you have opposite thinking for your country but in India it is hard fact about politics .
I end my response by saying that critical thinker and critical thinking atmosphere is something that is winding up at a very fast rate and world is facing problems like wars ,terrorism ,natural imbalances as a result of it .
Thanks For raising such a good discussion.....!
Happy Mylotting !
Take Care !
Ganesh !
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
27 Nov 08
Hello Ganesh and thanks for dropping by to add your most interesting views to the discussion. I appreciate your positive kudos about the topic...always good to know when members like them.
Interesting that you mentioned terrorism in the light of what happened in part of India today. I sent you a PM and e-mail to find out if you and your loved ones are safe.
Your comments about the lack of critical thinking in radical belief systems including politics is a point well taken.
We seem to be in agreement that many in society are losing their ability to think critically and weigh all sides of an issue before jumping on a bandwagon of misinformation.
Good input...thanks for posting it. Will await your response. In the meantime our thoughts and prayers are with you and others throughout India.
Raia
@Bluepatch (2476)
• Trinidad And Tobago
10 Nov 08
People do not lose their ability to think in any way unless their human nature is altered which has never happened.
People vote for someone for a variety of different reasons.
If they vote in an unlikely manner its because they are dissatisfied about something and are looking for an alternative.
Obviously, in this election, they were appealed to in a way that attracted a majority of votes.
Also, their perceptions may have changed without others knowing or being aware of it.
Its a credit to a successful politician to have perceived the way a population thinks and then capitalize on it.
1 person likes this
@Perspectives (7131)
• Canada
11 Nov 08
It is very interesting to me the way many have tied the generalized question about whether people are losing their ability to think critically back to the election.
Oh well, I guess I have no choice but to respond accordingly and ride the horse in the direction it is going.
I appreciate hearing your views about the election and why people voted the way they did. Thanks for offering it.
Raia
