So You Believe Health Care Is A Right, And Your Point Is What?

If health care is a right then that should be your right.

If health care is a right then how can government mandate it? Gun ownership is a right so should government mandate that everyone owns a gun?

The government does mandate gun ownership. There are regulations covering the sale of weapons, the requirement that you register your weapon and you need a permit to carry your weapon on your person or in your vehicle in most states.

Feel free to name one state that mandates gun ownership?

You're mixing apples and oranges, gewcew. Is a free public education not a right as well?

"Free?" What's free about it? Certainly not the high property taxes we're paying for it. Or...did you have in mind the freedom to learn? Not with the overwhelmingly leftist NEA running it, & dumbing down the curricula the government allows (!) to be taught. It's no mystery why we have some of the lowest scores among the developed nations from science & math students!

No, there's nothing free (or for that matter, right, in the moral sense) about "free" government indoctri--uh...I mean "schools." Further, they're even attempting to shut down other venues available, especially home schools, even though most home schooled children astronomically outshine their public "schooled" counterparts!

"Free," my Aunt Fanny.

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!

Maggiepie has it right, there is nothing free about the public education system.

You're sidestepping my question, gewcew, and in doing so failed to answer it so try again.

To both of you, a public education is free to the students who attend public school, standards notwithstanding. The contention that property taxes fund schools does not change that fact. Every child in this country has the right to go to school and the government mandates that they get an education. It has nothing to do with whether their parents are homeowners who pay property taxes.

Gun ownership is not mandated by the government, it is infringed upon by the government... The government OPPOSES gun ownership because it views an armed popoulace as a threat to it's power... which is the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

The Constitution specifically states that "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

We have some 200,000 gun control laws in the US, and every one of them is unconstitutional and illegal.

Free Public Education is no more of a right than is healthcare.

Free public education is not free... nothing is free, whether the government is behind it or the private sector... anyone but ab absolute moron would know that inescapable fact.

The government has no business in education or healthcare, these are both local issues and have nothing to do with the Federal Government.

As to property taxes... those are especially egregious in that you cannot be the owner of anything if the government can tax it.

If property can be taxed, then it can be seized... therefore you do not own it, and are merely a subject of the government. This is not the ideals behind the founding of our country.

People need to get an education and develop some independent reasoning skills.

Spalladino rights do not come from government, so no education is not a right it is a privilege. Public education is a privilege paid for by the taxpayers.
You are one to talk about answering a question. I am still waiting for the state that mandates gun ownership.

Education is compulsory so how can it be considered a privilege? It may not be inclded in the Bill of Rights but it's mandated on the state level that every child receive an approved form of education starting and ending at whatever age the state dictates.

I never said that any states mandates that you own a gun, although you have a constitutional right to. I said that the individual states mandate the circumstances upon which you can purchase, own and carry a weapon.

Now you are playing words games Spallidumdo.

A mandate is something far different than a right. A mandate is a requirement dictated by government whereas a right is given by God.

The government can neither bestow or remove rights... and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot who is ignorant about our country's history and culture.

Education is compulsory in that the state dictates basic education through a certain age range... which varies between the states.

We have the right to home school or self educate our children, and the state should have no say in that.

Public education is something thrust upon us be elitists who wanted people indoctrinated into working for someone else.... they do not like free thinkers, because individualism does not mesh with slavery and servitude... and make no mistake... the government and industrial-military complex and the financial industrial complex needs non thinking servants to work for them.

Socialists and Statists don't want an educated populace... they want an indoctrinated one... which is why our education has been deliberately dumbed down over the last several years.

As for gun ownership... neither the States or the Federal Government have the Constitutional authority to infringe upon the rights of gun ownership... and in fact are PROHIBITED from doing so by the 2nd Amendment.

I think you need to go back and do some "lernin"

Ewww, name calling...how mature.

"As for gun ownership... neither the States or the Federal Government have the Constitutional authority to infringe upon the rights of gun ownership... and in fact are PROHIBITED from doing so by the 2nd Amendment."

You might want to look get yourself some lernin and up the law in that area when it come to convicted felons.

I wasn't calling names... simply stating facts... your an idiot...

ANY gun control law is prohibited. Period.

If that is the best you can do, then you have no understanding of any of the issues or the history of our country.

Once a felon's time is served, then he has paid his debt to society.

That does not mean he should lose any rights.

I say that as former law enforcement.

Now go back and do it again.

And you prove yourself once again to be extremely immature. The need to resort to name calling shows how lame your argument is but by all means continue to take your impotent little shots. Makes no diff to me, kiddo.

As a former law enforcement...something... ...you certainly have very little knowledge of the law and apparently limited common sense as well. Not a slam, simply an observation regarding your across the board support of the re-establishment of right to felons regardless of the crime they served time for. Do you also believe that they come out of prison as new & improved upstanding citizens as pure as the driven snow?

The facts of the law are that felons lose their right to purchase, own or carry a firearm. Some felons, of the white collar variety, can have this right restored but those convicted of violent crimes, and most especially repeat offenders, will not. Perhaps you need to go back and do it again.

As a former Corrections Officer... I have a very good understanding of felons.

I also have a good understanding of the importance of keeping guns out of the hands of felons, and a further understanding of the governments attempts to make felons of of everyone they possibly can.

Keeping guns out of the hands of felons has nothing to do with public safety, and everything to do with disarming the populace.... as the government tries to make everyone either criminals or mentally ill in their pursuit of labeling people as dangerous or unfit to own guns.

Your position shows an inability to think things through and see the bigger picture.

If someone commits murder or any other capital crime, then by all means execute them.

If they merely broke a law, then why should they lose any rights at all after their sentence has been served?

You are the immature one...

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Once again you show that you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

I also have a very good understanding of human nature and motivations, and can detect a scam artist a long way off... which is one reason I saw right through Comrade 0bama long before the election.

I would say that you would be well served to talk about things you know, instead of wandering into areas that you have no clue about... which seems to be most everything.

Getting rid of all lobbying and lobbyists in Washington would take care of so much that is wrong in the society, as the politicians who benefit from the lobbying pass laws and regulations that are not of benfit to the people. I truly think the only thing all this government involvement will result in is yet another layer of buraucracy and expense.. And I think it will actually result in less healthcare.

Spalladino there are just some things government just cannot do, and money does not just grow on trees. Oh one last thing I would like to read of this state that makes it mandatory to own a gun.

We shall see gewcew. I responded to your play on words above.

There are some real problems, but those problems are not fixed by the draconian "health care reform" monstrosity! All it does is make it even harder to get help, & take away our freedom! Tort reform, allowing more competition among companies across state lines, & so on, would do the job, but then, that's not the reason the Left wants this thing, anyhow. It's about control. Of every part of your life.

All the promises the Left made about this thing, from what's in it to what it will coat to how it was created, were cynically broken. Lied about from the get-go! They've been forced to keep only one--the "no paid abortions" rule--but they're going to try their best to negate it (secretly, of course. "Transparency!? We don't neeeed no stinkin' transparency! We're in power now; we'll do whatever we damned well please! Thbbbt!"). Mark my words. At least I won't have to eat my own words.

There is no such animal as "free" health care! The bill the House just passed is a beast, though; I'll give it that...a beast from the pits of Hell.

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!

Oops. What it will cost....

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!

..and the bigger government gets (and every new program means government just morphed into a larger entity) the less rights the people have, because we lose the all important balance of power which came from the checks and balances upon power which is the basis of the constitution and bill of rights.. Some folks are not even aware that the bill of rights exclusively restricts the rights of government, something which has been a slippery slope for some time now..

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All men ARE created equal. But not ALL put forth equal effort. And government's job is to ensure all have an equal playing field, equal opportunity. Instead of taking and then giving away what someone has earned, why couldn't they have leveled the playing field? Insurance reform, tort reform...to lower malpractice insurance costs thereby lowering the cost of a doctor's visit or hospital stay. Why not ensure that all have opportunity to purchase healthcare with what THEY make? And for those who cannot earn a living...we had programs for that.

My son spent the last week in ICU. He was taken from one ICU here in our home town, to one in St. Louis. He got the BEST care and his life was saved. He had no insurance. The social workers are helping him apply for medicaid...retro active. Some would say...that is not fair. But I don't mind my taxes going to help save the lives of others who are unfortunate and who couldn't have health insurance. What I DO mind is the government saying what they will pay for and what they won't pay for. My son was on the liver transplant list...thank God he did not need a transplant. I asked the doctors if his not having insurance would be a factor in his getting a liver if needed. I was VERY afraid my son's life would depend on it. I was assured by a very kind specialist...who probably has spent all of his adult life training to save lives (and has outrageous student loan bills)...that that was NOT a factor. He smiled, and said thank God your son did not get sick a few years down the road...then I asked him what he meant. (I was so tired and scared I truly did not get it) He smiled again...put his arm on my shoulder and said...We still have the say in this. A few years from now we may not.

I thank God for the wonderful care my son got...and he will recover fully and go on to pay VERY high taxes in return!

As I said in another response, I'm glad that your son is okay, Deb. I'm also glad that he didn't fall through one of the huge cracks in our current healthcare system that many others do fall through. Your son most likely qualified for medicaid because he's unmarried and self supporting...or not working...and not able to earn a living right now due to his illness. Had he been married to someone who earned a decent living and without insurance, he would not have qualified for medicaid nor would he have been placed on the transplant list. This is the reason why my husband's late wife was refused a life saving liver transplant and was left to die at the age of 50.

As to your initial remarks. Insurance reform and tort reform won't necessarily lower the cost of healthcare. Haven't we learned anything from the way gas prices shoot up when the price of crude goes up yet it never comes back down in equal fashion?

My son is not married, this is true. But he is not unemployed...that is when he went into ICU...is was employed. We are waiting for his employer to respond to find out if he will have a job.

As for your other statements....a doctor on the transplant team told us that financial considerations are not part of the criteria that is used to determine who gets a transplant at this time...only the age, overall health (the presence of other chronic health issues), viability (ability to survive operation) of the patient is considered as to who is given an organ and who is not.

Wow, Debra, you've been through a lot. I am so glad your son is going to be okay. Transplants are one of the facets of health care that is already rationed, or rather, allocated based on criteria as you correctly stated. Age and other health conditions definitely play a part in whether one gets on the list or not. He's very lucky to have received the treatment he did.

The CBO report states that the House health care bill will actually increase the cost of health care. This is not real reform nor is it meant to be. It is meant to be a takeover and that is all it will accomplish besides bankrupting the economy.

"As for your other statements....a doctor on the transplant team told us that financial considerations are not part of the criteria that is used to determine who gets a transplant at this time...only the age, overall health (the presence of other chronic health issues), viability (ability to survive operation) of the patient is considered as to who is given an organ and who is not."

Perhaps not at this time and at that hospital. I do know for a fact that in 2002 the criteria for my husband's wife to get on the transplant list was based on his ability to write a very large check...in advance. Since he didn't have that kind of money and was unable to get it, she was made comfortable until her liver stopped functioning and she died. Transplant surgery costs over $100,000.00. No hospital can absorb losses like that from patients who are unable to pay and stay in business.

the only way they can provide it, it to take away from someone else. all men are created equally...so, how do the decide among the equals who deserves their aid, who shouldn't?
and by helping those they find deserving of the help, aren't they extending the right to that help to all the others who need that help?

or, are we the taxpayers destined to be the new slave class, paying for those benefits for others, while doing without ourselves?

You hit the nail on the head, those of us who work hard, go to college work hard to better our lives end up paying for those who do not. They are essentially sucking us down along with them, and the government is accomadating this.

Sorry I did not mean to say that only those who go to college work hard, I meant anyone who works hard to better themselves and take care of their families.

Sorry, ladym, but the largest group of uninsured in this country is the hard working, working class. Not every employer offers health insurance, not every hard working American is working full time so they don't qualify for benefits. The very poor and those living on public assistance have coverage. The rich either have it or can afford to live without it. Those who pay for private health insurance get little to nothing for the monthly premiums they pay since the deductables start at $1,000 and can go as high as $20,000...per year. If you, or anyone in your family, has a pre-existing condition, you're denied.

Thankyou spalladino. I was just reading this and thinking hmmm.,.. I work my little tail off and I don't get health benefits at all. I can't afford them. I will die before I walk into a doctors office and cost these people one little dime. It just won't happen. I never go to the doctors not ever and won't. Doctors visits are for the rich people and so is insurance. Unless you work for a big company and I don't then even the health care offered is out of my budget. I had it for a long while and I poured a lot of money into it...far more than what I used. I had to give it up. I'm 53 and yes, I smoke but I am knock on wood...very healthy. I have not missed a days work for being ill ....ever. I took a week off when my youngest daughter was born. I've over the years thrown tons of money into insurance and pretty much donated it...never used it. How much prettier right now would all that cash look in my bank account!!!

Ronny, you seem to be ignorant of one very important fact! The state is the only one which takes the money from you & I to pay for this health care. There is no-one who voluntarily shells out the money to do this--whom do you think would make "those who can pay (a debatable status in & of itself...)" to make the funds "go toward improving the health facilities for those who cannot pay"? The money fairy?

No! It is the government who "redistributes" our money! Furthermore, there isn't enough money to give everyone health care, so it's going to wreck our already dying financial system, & we are borrowed up to our eyebrows already from other countries! China hesitates now to lend us more money! How soon before they call in their debt? The dollar is dying, & this insane, sky-high costly bill will result in poorer health care, rationing of what we can get, & a lack of freedom never experienced in our formerly free country!

You need to study the problem far more deeply.

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!

You're mistaken...treatment in the ER consists of temporary fixes and stabilization. You cannot walk into an ER and receive life saving chemotherapy or radiation if you have cancer. They won't admit you and perform surgery for free. If you have heart disease that's not killing your right that minute they will not admit you and treat you for that either. The ER will also not perform orthopedic surgery. The ER will not check your cholesterol and give you medication nor will they give you medication for high blood pressure. I could go on but I won't.

You are kidding...right? Have you ever been to the ER? It is not free,...not by a long shot. In fact you pay a pretty penny more...way more. Even if you are lucky enough to have insurance...your cost on the insurance is going to be far greater if you go to the ER.

Thanks sid, I forgot to mention the financial aspect of going to the ER. Yes, they will send you a bill...a big bill...and expect you to pay it. If you don't pay it, it goes on your credit report and eventually turned over to a collection agency who then calls you day and night in an effort to get that big bill paid.

I don't know as it is a right. If it is...many of us don't have it. What I do see with this country is that we do an awful lot to provide for other countries to help them while those in our own country ...well who could care less. Pretty much if you don't work at all...you qualify for tons of help. If you work and can't afford insurance, heat, food, home...oh well....your're just skrewed. It's how it is.

Sid, I salute you for your honesty & bravery, & for your unwillingness to claim a "right" which doesn't exist, that of demanding others pay your way. But take heart, there are answers. The bill the House just passed doesn't have them, but there are ways--legal, moral ways--to improve things. See my other posts for more details on that.

God be with you, dear. I'll pray (& fight for) the ways we can find the help you need.

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!

Government loves to control, but what is sicker is those that want to be controlled.

Hey, no argument here!

I'm so disgusted with the "entitlement mentality" overtaking our country now. I have railed against this for years, to little avail. I wonder if it's too late to reverse this crud. Sigh. Not that I'm going to quit fighting, but, at times, I do think, maybe if I stopped banging my head against this wall of ignorance, it would make my headache stop....

But then I realize, it would just give me a bigger migraine if I just let it happen without a fight.

"Do not grow weary of doing good," says the bible. Yes Sir. I hear You.

Maggiepie
IMPEACH THE IMPOSTER!