Did the historical Jesus Christ actually exist?
By Pose123
@Pose123 (21635)
Canada
May 23, 2012 4:33pm CST
Is it possible that the world's largest religion, Christianity, is based on the life of a person who never lived at all? Most of us, myself included, find the thought almost shocking, yet where is the evidence? The Bible itself is just a collection of earlier writings put together by the church in the sixth century and apartently, of unkown authorship!
Such a question rarely confronts the religious believer, because the power of faith has so forcefully driven the minds of most believers, and even most Bibical scholars, that the question of reliable evidence gets obscured by tradition, religious subterfuge, and outrageous claims. The fact is that there isn't the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There is no Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus, there isn't a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came many years after his death, and from people who had never met him - all are therefore just hearsay accounts.
The Christian church has always presented the four gospels as having been written by actual diciples of Jesus, and most continue to do so today, dispite the fact all evidence shows that no one knows who actually wrote them. The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at 60-70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. This would make it some 30-40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, even for the first gospel. The most "authoritative" accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible, but we must remember that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers. Many gospels existed by that time, but it was decided that only four would become Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost.
There are those who claim that there is more evidence for the existence of UFO's than there is for the man Jesus Christ!
5 people like this
19 responses
@maidangela7349 (1191)
•
24 May 12
As I understand it there were a number of men around at the time claiming to be the messiah and of course Isreal was under Roman rule at the time so it was a rich enviornment for such people to establish themselves. I assume Jesus was one of these and had a good PR department. As to the gosspels I believe that Mathew was a member of Paul's group and a lot of the new testament are Paul's writings most of which was probably written by is scribes It seems that John's gosspel was written by a number of people but amalgamated under that name. It is interesting that the accounts of Jesus's early life do not appear in the first two gospels and that raises the question that was nothing known of his early life and the later gosspel writers invented the accounts of his birth. I think it is pretty certain that he came from Nazarath but there is a Jewish belief that the messiah would be born in Bethleham hence the need to invent a reason for Joseph and Mary to go to Bethleham. Apparently Augustus only ran two census in his life time and they did not require people to travel back to their birthplace. When you think about it that would cause a lot of problems and the reason for a cenus was to collect taxes and you collect them from were the guy lives and works not were he was born
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
25 May 12
Hi maidangela,Thank you for commenting and it's quite possible that there were a number of others claiming to be the messiah at the time, but if Jesus had a good PR department as you say, why is it that none of the writers of the day speak of him? We have nothing whatsoever except what's written in the Bible. It's hard for any of us who were indoctrinated as children, into the Christian faith to swallow this pill, but we have no choice. The church has done a good job of brainwashing over the years, and most people want to believe in something. The teachings in the sermon on the mount and the love and compassion that Jesus showed are above reproach even if he did not live, someone gave us some excellent teachings about how to live ... now if Christians would just follow them. Blessings.
@maidangela7349 (1191)
•
25 May 12
I was fortunate that my parents were not particularly religious although I went to Sunday School and my mother belonged to the Salvation Army. The problem with the bible is much of it was written for political reasons so what was said was not necessarily intended to help the reader. There is also the conference of Nicaea in 325 where the church leaders left out any gospels that did not say what they wanted followers to believe. Then you have translations which not only can be in error but tend to read as the translator wants if to read and of course how we interpret what is said. For instance in the Christmas story when we understand there is no room at the inn we imagine the family not entering the inn building but going into the stable whereas what is probably meant in that the inns in those days with one room with a platform for sleeping on and there was no room on the platform so they had to stay on the ground floor with the animals. Also the crucifixion, which a number of the Gnostic gospels do not even mention. This is a common theme in many different religions. In many of the ancient religions human sacrifice at Easter time occurs very often and one suspects that the crucifixion is this story repeated and embellished
@JohnRok1 (2051)
•
25 May 12
MaidAngela, I've thought quite a bit about this one, myself. You are right, Augustus's census did not require people to travel back to their birthplace. However, because the census was a part of their culture and religious heritage too, Jews chose to travel back to their ancestral city (which need not have been where they were born), because they wanted to be registered there. As you can imagine, this would apply particularly to those who were of the house and lineage of David.
1 person likes this
@1hopefulman (45111)
• Canada
25 May 12
Matthew wrote about Jesus.
Mark wrote about Jesus.
Luke wrote about Jesus.
John wrote about Jesus.
Paul wrote about Jesus.
James wrote about Jesus.
Peter wrote about Jesus.
Jude wrote about Jesus.
Josephus wrote about Jesus.
Tacitus wrote about Jesus.
That is ten people who wrote about Jesus. Now, someone who lived 2000 years later is questioning whether Jesus lived. That's pretty absurd to me!
Dictionary meaning of the word absurd:
adjective
1. utterly or obviously senseless, illogical, or untrue; contrary to all reason or common sense; laughably foolish or false: an absurd explanation.
1 person likes this
@Gordano (795)
• United States
1 Jun 12
Dear Pose,
I have a question for you if you don't mind, you always commend the sermon on the mount by Jesus Christ, in the sermon on the mount as far as I know Jesus Christ praised the Law, and recommended adherence to the Law, the law itself contains the prohibition of homosexuality, it is a part of the Law, so Why you always write in your replies that there is nothing wrong on being a gay?
Dear Pose, I respect you like a father, and you may know this, I have no intention to offend you, so my question is: Do you practice what you preach or Just preach what you practice?
and How do you know that there is nothing wrong in being a gay?
Don't you see the conflict between saying that there is nothing wrong in being a gay and commending the sermon on the mount which contains the praise of the Law which contains the prohibition of homosexuality?
I'm sorry, you are an educated man, but you face the lack of a dependable source of guidance, and if everything is left to our opinions we will have 6 billion preacher of 6 billion human being on the earth today.
and sorry for being off topic.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
26 May 12
Hi 1hopefulman, This is still hearsay and as such would never stand in any court of law. If you find any real evidence, I would love to know about it, but if there was any, don't you think that the church would be parading it? You have your faith and perhaps that's enough for you. Very few Christians ever bother to look for evidence, they just assume that it's there. The church has always known that if you keep saying something often enough, people will just accept it as true. You will notice that they never talk about the things that they want forgotten, such as the fact that some of the early fathers of the church believed in and taught reincarnation. It was more than five hundred years after Christ before they decided that such a belief did not serve their purpose and decided to throw it out. You can read about it in church history but you will never hear it talked about. My friend, Jesus may well have lived, but I doubt that you will find any evidence other than hearsay. Read again and again his teachings in the sermon on the mount and if you try to follow them, you will live a life that few will be able to imitate. Whether the teachings come from Jesus or from someone else doesn't really matter, it still points the way to life. Blessings.
@1hopefulman (45111)
• Canada
1 Jun 12
What do you view as hearsay? That Josephus existed? That Josephus had a father or relatives or that there could be older people that actually saw the events about Jesus? That an historian would interview people? In court, questions are asked and so I'm asking some questions. 
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi djbtol, Thank you for commenting but what you have is faith, not fact or proof. There is nothing wrong with faith if it's enough for you, but there are those of us who look for proof, and it just isn't there. Followers of every religion have faith. Blessings.
@alottodo (3056)
• Australia
10 Jun 12
Sorry to butt in but as much I believe in God, The almighty, The Formless,Nature or what ever is there! God did not write the Bible people did [mostly males] to comform their own deeds and mistakes so what ever barbaric act they performed was made in the name of God...but God has nothing to do with it! humans do.
@barehugs (8973)
• Canada
24 May 12
Many people of faith are frightened by their religion, and of their religion! Hellfire and Brimstone are not to be taken lightly, so they pray and tithe hoping that this will be enough to see them safely in heaven sitting at the feet of the Savior forever!
There is not and never has been any solid evidence that Jesus lived in the holy land of Palestine! But such a good story, and such a great business has made the Pope the richest man who has ever walked this earth!
About the existence of UFO's, only God knows, and She isn't telling!
1 person likes this
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
23 May 12
Most of us, myself included, find the thought almost shocking
I don`t think you find it shocking i think you want to promote this idea.
Unfortunately for you it looks like Jesus Christ really existed.There are also evidences from early historians and the biggest evidence are the millions of martyrs from the first centuries.
If you consider the historical figure to be God that is another problem.
Unfortunately for you it looks like Jesus Christ really existed.There are also evidences from early historians and the biggest evidence are the millions of martyrs from the first centuries.
If you consider the historical figure to be God that is another problem.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi iuliuxd, Thank you for sharing. I was raised in a Christian home and for most of my life would never have thought of such an idea, but now,while I admire the teachings of Jesus, I realize that the church has taught us many things as truth which have no foundation. Even if Jesus didn't exist, the teachings are still good. We must not confuse fact with faith and most of us were raised never to question such things. I believe we are meant to question everything, it's why we have a brain and a mind of our own. Despite what you may think, I'm still inclined to believe that such a person did live but that may be due to my upbringing. If a person decides that faith is enough, than that is their decision and their right. Blessings.
@comment_please (338)
• Philippines
24 May 12
you can read mind! well I can not read mind. You think she is promoting this idea?
anyway, i believe Jesus exist and still existing in my heart.
About history...Jesus is included in the history. Read: Colossians 1:15-18 and 1John 5:20
@iuliuxd (4453)
• Romania
24 May 12
Yes i can read minds.Or i can make a deduction based on what someone writes during time.
So my deduction is this : Jesus never existed.And even if he existed he was not Son of God.And even if he was Son of God he wasn`t the one you can read about in the bible.
@koopharper (7599)
• Canada
24 May 12
Actually your claim that "there isn't the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus" is flat out biased and incorrect. He is referred to in the Talmud by Jewish opponents. He is also mentioned by Flavius Josephus who while a Jew was an official Roman historian. He was not a Christian and his time is not far removed from the time Christ existed. You say there is no Roman record of Christ's crucifixion at the hand of Pontius Pilate. That is simply not true. there is another Roman historian named Tacitus who mentions Jesus and the fact that he was executed by Pontius Pilate. You're asking for evidence that exists for almost no one at that time and at the same time ignoring information that really isn't that hard to research.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi koopharper, Thank you for responding but all the people you mention lived after Jesus and had never met him. They mention him because Christianity had by then become a religion in it's own right, no longer associated with Judaism. No writer at the time of Jesus mentions him and there is no record of his crucifixion, although much was written about it years later. Don't you think the church would make such information known if it was there? Blessings.
@koopharper (7599)
• Canada
25 May 12
We do have eyewitness accounts in the bible. You've declared them invalid evidence because we don't have the original manuscripts. We have extra biblical evidence of existence from historians who lived and wrote their historical works within a hundred years of the events in question. They would have had access to official records of the day. Any good historian today would say that is more than "slight evidence".
If there was no Jesus I would be interested in hearing your theories as to how Christianity got start without him.
@Gordano (795)
• United States
26 May 12
Hello Pose123,
I am a firm believer that Jesus Christ actually exist, but the real story about his birth, mission, and his true teachings are not perfect in the today's Bible.
the source of My knowledge about Jesus Christ, his nature and his mission and his true teachings are not taken or based on the Bible, My knowledge about Jesus Christ are taken from the Holy Qura'n.
1 person likes this
@6precious102 (4043)
• United States
24 May 12
Do you know what the criteria is for classifying something as acceptable historical evidence?
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi 6precious, Thank you for commenting and I know that it isn't hearsay which is all that I've been able to find. In the case of Jesus, it would be his being mentioned by writers who lived at the time, and who at least had seen him. It could also be something that he had written, painted or created in some way. If it could be proved that the Shroud of Turin was the actual burial cloth of Jesus, that would be evidence, but there is no consensus that it is more than a few hundred years old. Why wasn't he mentioned by any writers of his day? Why is there no record of his crucifixion? All we have is what's written in the Bible and that has to be taken on faith. The fact is that there is prove of other great men and women in history, many of whom lived before Jesus. You have the right to accept the Bible as the inspired word of God, or like most Christians, as a collection of early church writings put together by the church in the sixth century, and perhaps with a few errors, but in most cases true. The Old Testament of course was written by Jewish writers but it was the Christian church who decided which of those books would be included in the Bible. Blessings.
@6precious102 (4043)
• United States
25 May 12
Since I could find only three ancient historians who lived anywhere near the time of Jesus, it doesn't seem too strange that there is not much written about Him apart from what's in the New Testament. Those historians were Josephus (A.D. 37 - c.100), Tacitus (A.D. 56 - 117), and Suetonius (ca. A.D. 69/72 - after 130). All the other ancient historians either lived before Christ or were so far past the time of Christ that they would have to have gotten their information from other people's writings.
Josephus makes two references to Jesus
Tacitus mention Christ's execution by Pontius Pilate and the early existence of Christianity in Rome.
Suetonius might have mentioned Christ in his writings.
"In The Life of Claudius 25.4, we find the statement, 'As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome.'"
It's not clear if Chrestus is suppose to be Christ or someone actually named Chrestus who was an agitator in Rome.
Here are two websites you might find interesting:
The History of Jesus www.evidencetobelieve.net/history_of_jesus.htm
and
Historians at Jesus' Time - Christian Forum www.christianforums.com/t7509431/
@bird123 (10658)
• United States
25 May 12
Say something long enough and people will believe and never question it. This is a great lesson for everyone. People should not value beliefs. They should always strive for the facts whether they agree with those facts or not.
I have not heard this one about Jesus. I might have to investigate further when I can find the time. You mention a very good spot to investigate. Searching for the Roman records of Christ being crucified by Pontius Pilate seems to be a good spot to research. There should be evidence in places other than in religious text unless it never happened. Very interesting.
Looks like you got lots of people to Feel on this one. On the other hand, many will start Thinking as well.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
25 May 12
Hi bird, Thank you for commending and that's very true. If we say something long and often enough, and people will believe it without question. If you can come up with any evidence outside of the Bible, I would love to know. I know I may have upset some people with this one but I hope that it will get others thinking. Saying that something is true doesn't make it true. Blessings.
@cowboyofhell (3063)
• Philippines
27 May 12
Well, Jesus was too busy healing and preaching people to leave any evidence of His existence. He also had probably thought the apostles would do the work instead of him. He shouldn't work everything on his own and transportation during that time takes long days so why spend time writing many texts just to prove your existence. That is also kind of selfish and Jesus do not agree with the idea of self-glorification. People everywhere needed to see him and had rather spent his time on that purpose.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42155)
• France
24 May 12
Denying the existence of somebody is an academic game that can be fascinating when it is well done. I put at the top of my list a French thesis written at the end of the 19th century proving that the Roman historian Tacitus never existed, and that his works were written in Italy at the beginning of the Renaissance. It was only an intellectual game, but brilliant. More recently we had an academic proving that gas chambers have never existed and that Jews were not exterminated during the last world war : this shameful work was another sort of intellectual game, written by a member of a far right party. I understand how it would be interesting for atheists to prove that Jesus Christ never existed. Several books have been written in this direction since 2 centuries : if they were credible, don't you think that other historians would have relieved them, or do you think that all historians on this planet are involved in a conspiracy of silence about the non existence of Jesus Christ ?
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
25 May 12
Hi topffer, Thank you for coming here and sharing your views but the fact is there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ as there is for other great men in history. Why was Jesus not mentioned by a single writer of his day? Those who did so later, spoke of him as the founder of Christianity. The claim that the Jews were not exterminated during world war II, is of course ridiculous as there is plenty of evidence to prove they were. I am not an atheist but was raised a Christian and for most of my life just assumed that there had to be plenty of evidence that Jesus Christ lived. Now I'm wondering why the church did not tell us the truth all along. The day has passed when the masses will believe anything that they are told, and I feel that most people would agree that this is as it should be. Don't you think that if the church had any proof they would have produced it long ago? Blessings.
1 person likes this
@topffer (42155)
• France
25 May 12
Do you know many Greek or Roman historians contemporary of Jesus ? I don't. Flavius Josephus speaks of Jesus, Tacitus in Nero's life speaks of Jesus... Each time a new evidence appears, a lot of people are shouting that it is a forgery. The prosecution around the James ossuary is significant : at the end an Israeli judge has had this year the guts to reject the conclusion of the Israeli Antiquities Authority stating that the inscription was a forgery : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Ossuary I don't think that a trial is the good way to prove an historical point, but hats off to this judge.
@JohnRok1 (2051)
•
25 May 12
I invite you Pose, to examine the Biblical accounts and show they are fabricated. I must warn you, however, that Lord Lyttleton and Gilbert West tried it in the nineteenth century and they ended up converts to Christ, and the treatises they left are monuments to this. In the first half of the twentieth century, Albert Henry Ross tried the same thing and ended up writing, under the nom de plume of Frank Morison, the book, "Who Moved the Stone", which has convinced a lot of people of the truth of the Resurrection. If you are determined to be really honest about things, you will end up a Christian.
1 person likes this
@Bhurishrava (681)
• India
2 Jun 12
There is no evidence to say that he did exist, neither is there any evidence to say that he did not exist.
@nonersays (3344)
• United States
23 May 12
In our history book when I was in High School Jesus was mentioned. He wasn't called the son of God, but he was talked about.
@comment_please (338)
• Philippines
24 May 12
Jesus is included in history book as responsible for Christianity. He was not called son of God but in the Bible, Jesus is called the son of God. Have you read a Bible?
Read: John 3:16.
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi nonersays, Thank you for sharing but there is really no evidence that Jesus Christ ever lived. The historians who did write about him lived many years later and therefore had never met him. We only have what's written in the Bible and that has to be accepted on faith alone. Blessings.
@thanks1961 (7033)
• India
24 May 12
All religion and faith come into being with their own research and after a prolonged transictions. As an indvidual we cannot judge the existence and if want to prove the same, we need claim to be lived in those days what they are claiming. Not only in the case of Jesus, all other religions and their faith are based on certain proof and concents whcih we cannot oppose as it is.
Those who follow the faith, they continues and believes. People can prove as yes or no. But there is only one truth which no one knows. Faith, that is everything. Also, there are a group of peole around who doesen't even know who is Jesus Christ. Don't you think so?
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
25 May 12
Hi thanks, Thank you for commenting and I agree that all religion is based on faith, yet I'm sure most Christians feel that there is plenty of proof that Jesus actually lived. After all, there is prove for other great men in history, even for many who lived before Christ. I am not saying that he never lived, just that there is no evidence outside of the gospel writings. If faith is enough for you than that is fine, but I don't like being misled especially by the church, and I think it will eventually lead to the down fall of Christianity. Blessings.
@PointlessQuestions (15397)
• United States
24 May 12
I believe that Jesus did live and that everything that is written about him is true. If I thought otherwise I couldn't call myself a Christian. I let people believe what they want or not believe what they want.. it's not their salvation that I care about... it's mine. I know if I reject Christ that I am no better than those who crucified him.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi PointlessQuestions, Thank you for commenting and I know that you have faith, but I have been searching for any proof besides what's written in the Bible. I know that I've opened a can of worms here but I think everyone has a right to know the truth for themselves. We know that the church has not always been truthful with us in the past, so don't we at least have the right to question what they teach and to check it out for ourselves? The day is past when the masses will accept everything that they are told without question, and I for one am happy with that. As you know, I am not an atheist, neither do I want to prove that Jesus didn't live at all, but if he didn't, the teachings are still good. Blessings.
@raganator27 (104)
• United States
24 May 12
I believe Jesus Christ existed, even though there is no real proof. It all just depends on what you were grown up believing.
1 person likes this
@Pose123 (21635)
• Canada
24 May 12
Hi raganator, Thank you for your comment and I respect your honesty. It does depend upon what we have been taught as a child. You have faith and if you are satisfied with that, it is fine as no one can prove you right or wrong. For me, the teachings of Jesus Christ are good and nothing else really matters in the end. I don't however, like the idea that we are expected to believe what we are told without investigating for ourselves. Blessings.
